Folding Nut Flush Draws?

JCW78

JCW78

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Is it ever a good option to fold the nut flush draw?

I have been in some situations where the pot was giving me the right odds, but I wasn't comfortable making the call. I have no problem throwing away lesser flush draws, but find myself waivering when it's the nut draw.

Is this a bad play or should you call off part sometimes even all your money if you have the odds?
 
C

cAPSLOCK

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What game are you playing?

Yes. If you are playing cash, you should call EVERY TIME the other player(s) gives you the right pot odds. At least on nice clean unpaired boards.

Then you have to take into account implied odds, and who you are up against. Sometimes something even a little shy of good enough odds is the right play when your opponent will likely let you break him or get in a good value bet after the river. obviously stack sizes matter here.

In a tourney it might be another story. I am sure some tourney players can help out there. ;)
 
dd_decker

dd_decker

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Great reply! In cash games, playing the odds correctly over time will certainly make you a winning player. In a tourney, where you may be knocked out if you don't hit, it is often better to wait for a better spot to get your money in. Then again, if you are simply facing a standard raise, it may be woth it to see the next card. Depends on your stack size and if you think you can get all your opponent's chips if you do hit the nuts. In the small stakes games and freerolls, it is really tough to lay down the nut flush draw. Sometimes, an all in bet will get your opponents to fold, so you can also win without even hitting the flush...
 
Nickmond

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The problem with hitting a flush is they are relatively easy to sniff out in comparison to other big hands for decent players. Sometimes you don't get the big payoff you thought you were going to when you hit, and when you don't hit you could end up behind in eight ball in a tourney or SNG.
 
JCW78

JCW78

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I understand that situation. My problem is I am still drawing, listen to me I used to never have a problem drawing, and there is a real chance I'm not going to hit and my money will be pissed away. I do have an easier time in tournament mucking this hand. If I feel I am way behind I lean towards folding, but if I think my A is a usable out I lean towards calling. I just didn't know if it was a bad play to fold if you have the pot odds.
 
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diemos

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Depends on the situation and who you are playing with, nut flush draw for me personally is hard to fold.
 
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Shylax

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The problem with hitting a flush is they are relatively easy to sniff out in comparison to other big hands for decent players. Sometimes you don't get the big payoff you thought you were going to when you hit, and when you don't hit you could end up behind in eight ball in a tourney or SNG.

I agree. The implied odds aren't as great as say an open ended draw which is more well hidden and will probably get you paid off very nicely...

However,

Does your nut flush draw mean you're holding the Ace or is the Ace on the board and your holding the King?

Because if your holding the Ace, then that's 3 more outs added to your 9 which warrants a call of a standard bet. If your opponent paired, you're pretty much in a coin flip and could entertain the thought of reraising to put pressure back on your opponent. Even if your opponent flops 2 pair, you're only a 40% underdog not hit your flush or an Ace by the river. You're only really in trouble with flopped sets, trips or straights (boats and quads, you're dead meat anyway) which as you know are unlikely holdings. So a call or raise would be the move. I don't think I'd fold on the flop unless he put me all in.

If the Ace is already on the board, then I'll see what my opponent does and proceed accordingly. If he bets half the pot or less, I'm probably calling. As stated above, I don't think the implied odds warrant a call of a potsized bet because after seeing the third suit, I doubt I'd get paid off to justify the call.
 
Naked Welder

Naked Welder

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I have been getting burnt by flushes lately. I actually have a personal term for botched flushes. I call it a "Turd in the toilet". Last night I had the nuts on the turn with clubs. I can't remember the other card because it was insignificant (but still a club) but the others were a 9something, 10c, and my Ac. This fool was making full house types of bets but, I couldn't read that possibility from the community. Well, wouldn't you know it? There was the 10 on the river and he is holding nines. I lost half my roll after doubling up earlier at another table with a flush made on the river. I guess I must have deserved that you think? Anyway, I am definitely a lot less comfortable with a flush than I used to be and will now have a notion of consideration to play defensively even with a nut flush.

Learning poker is kind of like training Kung Fu. If you get hit enough eventually you learn to block or redirect an attack leaving you with less and less black eyes.
 
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BluffYou123

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Its a tough one.

Depends on the bet size and your stack in relation to who you're playing against.

If you have 2 cards to come, it is well worth a call.

Not too sure about it on the river though.

Just go with your gut and if you do put your chips in, I wish you the best of luck.
 
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