Folding KK Preflop

pokernutts · May 23, 2012

You are playing heads up SNG hold em. Its toward the middle of the game. Stacks are even.

You have noticed that your opponent is pretty tight and raises EVERY time he has an ace.

You are delt kk.

You raise 5 times the BB

Your your opponent shoves you all in.

You know there is a very good chance he has a10, aq, aj, or ak.

Many of you will say not fold.

After all you have a MADE hand ...kk.

But in this situation isnt pocket 2s, or 3s JUST as good as kk?

I mean either he hits his ace on the flop or he doesnt!\

If he hits the ace and you dotn have an ace ur screwed either way no mater WHAT you have unless you hit two pair or trips which is very unlikely.

So the fact that you have KK.... does it really mater when pushed all in with an ace.... ANY ace? Even ACE RAG?

Big_Rudy · May 23, 2012

It absolutely matters. What if he pairs his kicker, and not his ace? That's why K-K is FAR superior to 2-2 in this situation. You said yourself; he shoves any Ace. So with K-K you are in pretty good shape, 2-2 not so much.

Jack Daniels · May 23, 2012

pokernutts said:
Many of you will say not fold.

I'd expect everyone to say not fold. You're not folding KK preflop here. If his range is any A or any pair then you're around 2.5 to 1 favorite. And you're in the middle of the game presumably blinds are climbing...shove.

BlueNowhere · May 23, 2012

Yea 22/33 is absolutely the same as KK.

BluffYou123 · May 23, 2012

It's just never EVER going to be correct to fold KK preflop in a HUsituation. Don't do it.

Kenzie 96 · May 23, 2012

Ol #7 sighting, cool.
No excuse for folding here.

MediaBLITZ · May 23, 2012

22 vs AQ (for example) - 22 is 52% to win
KK vs AQ - KK is almost 72% to win

Now you tell me - is there a difference? Does it matter? If not then you need to find another game.

spstevens · May 23, 2012

You should fold here "but only if you are playing against me". No seriously you are ahead of all but one hand , you should love getting it in with KK.

spstevens · May 23, 2012

And as MediaBLITZ pointed out not only ahead but "substantially" ahead.

MTTGOD57 · May 24, 2012

MediaBLITZ said:
22 vs AQ (for example) - 22 is 52% to win
KK vs AQ - KK is almost 72% to win

Now you tell me - is there a difference? Does it matter? If not then you need to find another game.

Exactly. Even in a three way pot playing a full table 4 betting or shoving KK is the correct play. As Dan harrington saids when you have pocket kings you should never worry about coming up against pocket AAs as the chances of this occurring are 17 to 1. However, when it does happen you can shrug it off as a coller and know fall well that you did nothing wrong in the hand. Besides even if you do come up against ACEs you can still hit a king although unlikely it can will and does happen. I for one should know this well because i have seen it all when it comes to bad beats in poker.

likeadonk23o · May 24, 2012

I agree if it's heads up, shove and be happy what ya gonna do wait for AA to beat the bully, if he has Ax you are way ahead. superman can dodge bullets

Arjonius · May 24, 2012

The only situation where you should fold is when he shows you his AA.

Leo 50 · May 24, 2012

I think you have to call his shove

Just my 2¢

Hardcorecake · May 24, 2012

Yah you gotta call the shove..no ifs..ands or buts about it.

Seabrooknutzz · May 24, 2012

I think there are only 2 situations where you can fold KK pre.
1) 1st hand wsop main event
2) Final Table with a couple of all ins in front of you with a chance to climb the ladder
IMHO

poker d player · May 24, 2012

Arjonius said:
The only situation where you should fold is when he shows you his AA.

... this ^^

BluffYou123 · May 24, 2012

Seabrooknutzz said:
I think there are only 2 situations where you can fold KK pre.
1) 1st hand WSOP main event
2) Final Table with a couple of all ins in front of you with a chance to climb the ladder
IMHO

1st hand of the ME I'm not folding KK and it'd have to be 3 or more all ins before me on a final table before I'd even consider folding. I would fold KK pre in a satellite though if I was guaranteed to outlast shorter stacks.

Matt Vaughan · May 24, 2012

I think the most important point here is correcting what you said about any pocket pair being equivalent to KK. Let's assume Villain is shoving AT, AJ, AQ, AK, AA. This is his shoving range. For completeness, let's look at the odds of him having any of these hands.

Combinations:
AA - 6 combos
AK - 8 combos (you have 2 of the kings)
AQ - 16 combos
AJ - 16 combos
AT - 16 combos

Total: 62 combos. Which means he only has AA about 10% of the times he shoves. And this is assuming we know his shoving range is this tight (in HU it might not be). So with KK, you are dominating his range 90% of the time, since as you said, he pretty much has to hit an A when he doesn't have two of them already.

Now let's consider 99 against the same range. Now, he's still dominating you the 10% of the time he has AA, but what's happening the other 90%? It's basically a flip. Against each hand in his range (aside from AA), you are winning about 55% of the time, and he is winning about 45% of the time. Because he doesn't have to hit an ace to beat you. If the kicker to his ace is 10 or higher and you have 99, he can just pair the kicker to be ahead. With AT he can hit an ace OR a 10, with AJ he can hit an ace OR a jack, etc etc.

I think some of the useful posts by Big_Rudy and MediaBLITZ are getting lost amidst the "LOLZ WHY WOULD YOU FOLD KK PRE?!??!" Make sure you understand why this is never a correct fold, not just the fact that it isn't.

MediaBLITZ · May 24, 2012

Scourrge said:
I think the most important point here is correcting what you said about any pocket pair being equivalent to KK. Let's assume Villain is shoving AT, AJ, AQ, AK, AA. This is his shoving range. For completeness, let's look at the odds of him having any of these hands.

Combinations:
AA - 6 combos
AK - 8 combos (you have 2 of the kings)
AQ - 16 combos
AJ - 16 combos
AT - 16 combos

Total: 62 combos. Which means he only has AA about 10% of the times he shoves. And this is assuming we know his shoving range is this tight (in HU it might not be). So with KK, you are dominating his range 90% of the time, since as you said, he pretty much has to hit an A when he doesn't have two of them already.

Now let's consider 99 against the same range. Now, he's still dominating you the 10% of the time he has AA, but what's happening the other 90%? It's basically a flip. Against each hand in his range (aside from AA), you are winning about 55% of the time, and he is winning about 45% of the time. Because he doesn't have to hit an ace to beat you. If the kicker to his ace is 10 or higher and you have 99, he can just pair the kicker to be ahead. With AT he can hit an ace OR a 10, with AJ he can hit an ace OR a jack, etc etc.

I think some of the useful posts by Big_Rudy and MediaBLITZ are getting lost amidst the "LOLZ WHY WOULD YOU FOLD KK PRE?!??!" Make sure you understand why this is never a correct fold, not just the fact that it isn't.

Ed Miller fan - HA!

sam1chips · May 25, 2012

if he has A6, your KK is higher than the 6, and will only lose if an A comes up. If you have 22 or 33, you can lose if your opponent hits an A or a 6.

Also a side note, you can NOT fold KK pre-flop heads up. If he has pocket aces then he has pocket aces, and if he has A-rag and then hits an A on the boards then oh well. You will win KK heads up so many times, you can not afford to fold it.

DEdwardsNJ · May 26, 2012

Arjonius said:
The only situation where you should fold is when he shows you his AA.

Even then I'm still not folding, its KK for **** sake!!!

hackmeplz · Jun 5, 2012

Also don't 5x pre the first time

Ezekiel162 · Jun 5, 2012

keepin tha kings... as scourrge explained...

Chessplayer · Jun 5, 2012

always go all in with kings prefolp unless your sure he has aces. if you think he has a-x then still call because in poker you want to be ahead prefolp and if you get unlucky then you get unlucky. Dont let fear of bad luck get in ur way...

jacor · Jun 5, 2012

I'd always call allin preflop with KK and you should do the same.

Folding KK Preflop

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