folding AK, AQ preflop (LOL?)

#1 5th September 2011, 6:02 AM

ok so.....
is there ANY situation where AK,AQ should be folded preflop against an all in.

i can imagine in a full game where 4 or 5 people are all in pre (very unusual), might be a decent fold there.

my question is really about heads up tho. is there ANY instance where i should be folding that hand in an all in preflop situation?

#2 5th September 2011, 7:15 AM

when you don't have equity and pot odds to continue vs. someone's shoving range, you should fold.

#3 5th September 2011, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by baudib1

when you don't have equity and pot odds to continue vs. someone's shoving range, you should fold.

can you give me an example. i really need to learn this, it would be appreciated.

#4 5th September 2011, 11:28 AM

I find very easy folds with AQ, if you have action in front of you, what do you beat? Not much, maybe AJ/AT/KQ etc, but most of the time in a coinflip you're behind.(Thats for 6max/9max, not HU)

#5 5th September 2011, 11:48 AM

fullring, A,Q never calling all in if blinds are still low unless I have a read knowing a player is shoving any Ace for example and in general I have him crushed. A,K I'd consider folding early in a tournament, again player dependant. If for example, someone hadn't played a single hand in 20, I'd fold A,K, if someone played 50% of hands, I'd snap call.

Headsup, I'm calling A,K all in close to every time, it would have to be a very specific reason or whatever it may be why I wouldn't call, not sure if I've ever folded to be honest.

A lot of the factors though depends on who you're playing and what current pace the tournament is at. A,Q is a little different, I'd fold to a 3bet/4betshove unless I know I have equity against his range of hands, again it's so hard to say. A lot will quite happily shove A,9+ so obviously I'm calling these people.

In general though, like I said earlier, A,K/A,Q AIPF is +EV

#6 5th September 2011, 11:58 AM

eg. 9 man STT with 4 people left. 150/300 blinds.
UTG: 300 chips
BTN: 1,500 chips
SB: 5,000 chips
BB (hero): 3,700 chips

SB shoves all-in you can fold everything except KK or AA here aparently, although i'd probably call with QQ.

#7 5th September 2011, 1:43 PM

AQ is an easy fold if you have got action in front of you or if someone behind you re-raises. AK is harder to fold. The dynamics of the game have to be taken into account in any decision and any call or fold should be based on the odds and your read of the opponents. Like all things in poker there is no right or wrong answer.

#8 5th September 2011, 6:18 PM

Originally Posted by blikbleek

can you give me an example. i really need to learn this, it would be appreciated.

blinds are 10/20 stacks are 1,500 you raise with AQo to 40, he shoves for 1,500, you estimate his range at QQ+/AK.

call is 1,460 to win 1,540 and we only have 24.4% equity so we fold.

#9 5th September 2011, 8:36 PM

Originally Posted by baudib1

blinds are 10/20 stacks are 1,500 you raise with AQo to 40, he shoves for 1,500, you estimate his range at QQ+/AK.

call is 1,460 to win 1,540 and we only have 24.4% equity so we fold.

or a bit more extereme:
in a 9 man STT blinds are 10/20 stacks are 1,500 you raise with AQs to 40, he shoves for 1,500, you estimate his range at 22-TT.

call is 1,460 to win 1,540 and we have 47% equity but we still have to fold.

#10 5th September 2011, 8:39 PM

Probably not helpful to encourage OP to put people on a single hand.

#11 5th September 2011, 8:44 PM

Originally Posted by baudib1

Probably not helpful to encourage OP to put people on a single hand.

fine, edited, although it wasn't really relevant to the point I was trying to make.

#12 7th September 2011, 5:20 AM

Originally Posted by blikbleek

ok so.....

my question is really about heads up tho. is there ANY instance where i should be folding that hand in an all in preflop situation?

AK is the nuts HU,so never fold
AQ is basically opponent dependent (mostly a snap call or all in with a shallower stack)

#13 7th September 2011, 5:53 AM

I have been playing every day now for almost a year. This is both online and live. ( when work allows me to ). With that being said I understand that my poker work needs well .. work . Now , I find it very easy to fold both AQ and AK pre flop for several different reasons and while I hate to do it I have NO problems doing it.
A lot of the various reasons have been mentioned previously but I believe there is no shame in holding out if your in a position where you do not feel comfortable in playing a hand. One thing I do NOT like is a coin flip. I will be honest. For some reason it seems I am always on the loosing end of it.

#14 7th September 2011, 7:24 AM

If you don't like calling when you have 45-50% equity with dead money maybe poker isn't for you.

#15 7th September 2011, 7:53 AM

When people stop playing AQ- and QQ- the way they do, I'll stop playing AK the way I do. When people stop playing AJ- and JJ- the way they do, I'll stop playing AQ the way I do.

#16 7th September 2011, 3:42 PM

Originally Posted by ferratus

I have been playing every day now for almost a year. This is both online and live. ( when work allows me to ). With that being said I understand that my poker work needs well .. work . Now , I find it very easy to fold both AQ and AK pre flop for several different reasons and while I hate to do it I have NO problems doing it.
A lot of the various reasons have been mentioned previously but I believe there is no shame in holding out if your in a position where you do not feel comfortable in playing a hand. One thing I do NOT like is a coin flip. I will be honest. For some reason it seems I am always on the loosing end of it.

In MTT's I'm unsure of how this can ever be a good move, sure in certain spots where you think you're behind, folding A,Q is fine. As for folding A,K, flipping vs an under pair is standard in MTT and needs to be done to get further. Most of the time, you will be dominating and people are quite willing to shove A,10+

#17 7th September 2011, 9:48 PM

Originally Posted by ferratus

Here is just one example for me. Remember I do not like coin flips. Why because it always seems ( or would appear to ) that I come out on the loosing end.

Freeroll yesterday I sit and sit and sit and watch... I see 2-3 people go all in and I was sitting in late pos with AQ off.

2 people had pp one of which was KK. The other was low pp as in 44 or 55. The 3rd person had AK off.

As per usual the flop comes down 4JJ 9 K. End of story.. felt good about throwing them down.

2nd example and THIS is why I will muck them if I do not like what I am seeing.

AK off preflop I am middle stack in middle pos everyone has folded to me. I shove all in . This other guy in late pos has been playing every hand and I DO mean every hand and as expected he shoves all in pre with a 95 off.

Flop comes down and its a complete and utter miss for me and yep you guessed it.. the donk hits his 9 AND his 5..

For me I would rather raise pre flop prior to entering to committing to hand and not be able to pull back. I would rather chip away slowly and then put someone on a big hand and dry them up.

Do not get me wrong. I will still push with AK or AQ I would say 60 percent of the time and that fluctuates back and forth depending on the table, players and amount involved. Thats just me. Maybe that will change in time who knows..

cool story imo, bro

#18 8th September 2011, 2:20 AM

Originally Posted by eqgh5uea

AK is a bad starting hand.

I have about a 20% win rate with AK.

also cool story, bro

#19 8th September 2011, 3:43 AM

Originally Posted by blikbleek

ok so.....
Is there ANY situation where AK,AQ should be folded preflop against an all in.
Is there ANY instance where i should be folding that hand in an all in preflop situation?

AK - Flip for the Win.
Situational dependent
Ask yourself - AK is ahead of what % of my opponents range in this situation?
Most often it's an insta call.

AQ - Flip if your lucky
Opponent Dependent
Ask yourself - AQ is ahead of what % of my opponents All in PreFlop range?

Calling an All in

Stack Depth - Situational - Player Dependent
Shoving

#20 8th September 2011, 6:02 PM

Results-oriented people ITT.

#21 13th September 2011, 5:37 AM

Heads up I don't think I would ever fold either of those hands. Maybe with AQo and its 500bb deep.

#22 13th September 2011, 5:44 AM

Originally Posted by baudib1

Results-oriented people ITT.

Not nearly as many as there were a few seconds ago.

#23 13th September 2011, 3:09 PM

Originally Posted by WVHillbilly

Not nearly as many as there were a few seconds ago.

Why did you delete my post? That was a good example I had for OPs post.

#24 13th September 2011, 3:10 PM

Same here ..maybe the photos were too much

#25 13th September 2011, 3:35 PM

Both of you just posted Bad Beats. There is a whole forum dedicated to that crap. Take it there.

#26 13th September 2011, 3:44 PM

This was a key point in a tourney 9th place 12left top 10 get paid. Maybe for some people its insta shove but, I think Fold and call may have been ok considering going against a chip leader where I was certain I would get called. Not just a Bad beat.
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#27 13th September 2011, 5:58 PM

Your post is irrelevant to this thread AND it's a bad beat.

#28 13th September 2011, 7:37 PM

So there is no other play with this hand. All in every time in this spot? Serious question. If I fold Im still in 9th with a 1.5 BB lead over 11th&12th with 7 more hands to play before I get hit with the blinds again.. If I go all in, and if I get called which I was certain I would get a call, with the range I put him on; best case scenario I'm about 65%. Im still in good position to make the money if I fold, or was my all in +EV becuase, I would have jumped into 2ndor 3rdish. Its a 50person cap mtt with top ten get paid.

#29 13th September 2011, 11:20 PM

OP clearly asks first... should you fold AQ preflop against an all-in? You went all-in with AQ. Secondly, he asks should you fold AQ in an AIPF situation? You weren't even heads up. you still had a player left to act behind you. Your hand is nothing more than... what WVHillbilly said.

But since you're obsessing... you would be way wrong to fold this hand pre... and you're certainly not folding it on the flop. Your opponent isn't either. Oh, well. That's poker. Move on.

If min-cashes are meaning that much to you, move down in stakes. If you're not losing every chip possible when that board runs out, you should just go play chess instead. You play... to win... the game.

#30 11th November 2011, 6:37 AM

Hey yall, this is my first post, I actually googled the same question and this thread was the top result.

Here's an example of when I folded AK preflop yesterday. I was on the bubble with AK suited, I raised UTG and button re-popped all in followed by another all in by BB. Having been the bubble boy last time I played in this particular tourney, I decided to fold. Turns out I had both of them dominated preflop, but my hand wouldn't have hit, and I would have been eliminated. I ended up winning the tourney later with another AK all in preflop vs A10, so turns out it was a good fold.

To answer your question, calling all in w/ AK preflop and heads up is probably not a bad idea, however in most cases it's going to be a coinflip. You're going to have to win some coinflips to win in holdem.

#31 11th November 2011, 7:28 AM

Originally Posted by Johnboy

. Turns out I had both of them dominated preflop, .......but my hand wouldn't have hit, and I would have been eliminated. .

so it's a good fold then?

#32 11th November 2011, 8:28 AM

I dont know if OP means only tourneys or not. But in cash I find myself folding AQ and AK in a few spots. And I am also getting it in sometimes as well. It is all opponent specific. I raised UTG+1 with AKo got a sizable re raise from a 11/7 in MP and an all in push from a 9/4 in the blind. I did not like my AK anymore and away it went. We were all >100BB The MP called the all in with KK and SB called with AA: I had an all in push from a 90/48 (seriously) to my button raise with AK and I snap called. He shows QT and I hold.

So, in cash anyway, AK is gonna be an easy fold and an easy call to all ins, depending. AQ as well, but I tend to throw it away easier.

Aha. Just paid attention, OP is asking mainly HU. So, that will be totally different, and I am not the one to answer here. If its HU pre due to folds, then it is player specific. If its a HU games, IDK, but thinking AK is the absolute nutz here and AQ not to far behind if first in.And maybe even calling??

#33 11th November 2011, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by Johnboy

Hey yall, this is my first post, I actually googled the same question and this thread was the top result.

Here's an example of when I folded AK preflop yesterday. I was on the bubble with AK suited, I raised UTG and button re-popped all in followed by another all in by BB. Having been the bubble boy last time I played in this particular tourney, I decided to fold. Turns out I had both of them dominated preflop, but my hand wouldn't have hit, and I would have been eliminated. I ended up winning the tourney later with another AK all in preflop vs A10, so turns out it was a good fold.

To answer your question, calling all in w/ AK preflop and heads up is probably not a bad idea, however in most cases it's going to be a coinflip. You're going to have to win some coinflips to win in holdem.

Folding was bad.

It's never hardly a coin flip with A,K, you're quite up agaisnt a weak ace.

Sure flipping with A,K vs underpairs is common and it's a must, even on the bubble...

#34 12th November 2011, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by ramdeebam

Folding was bad.

It's never hardly a coin flip with A,K, you're quite up agaisnt a weak ace.

Sure flipping with A,K vs underpairs is common and it's a must, even on the bubble...

^this.
as much as I hate getting it all-in with AK, if its on the bubble, Im shoving, and calling an all-in if I think Im ahead. get it in good, and leave the rest to the poker gods.