Flopping 2 Pair and Losing

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HudaThunkit

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Hello. Can anyone explain to me why is that when I flopped two pair, even top two pair, I lose 90% of the time? It just doesn't seem right to loose so often when you flop so well with two pair. It's gotten to the point where I damn near feel sick when I flop two pair. Thank you
 
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Broon1234

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Possibly terrible variance, failure to bet for fold equity against your appointments, bet sizing to provide opponents poor pot odds, or simply selective memory of losses which we all do.
 
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HudaThunkit

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I bet appropriately but get sucked out 90% of the time that I flop 2 pair. So annoying.
 
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MMarshall89

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How often does that happen to you?

And what boards are you hitting these two pair on?
Are you raising pre flop with hands and seeing boards with draw potential?

Could just be random and not every two pair or top two pair is going to be sucked out.
 
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MinhANguyen

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That's poker. Variance is a bitch, and at times you will run super cold. And when you do flop a hand, you either keep getting sucked out on or run into the top of your opponent's range. Sometimes you need to let go of strong hands when people start raising you. Like today, I knew I should have folded a 10 high flush (backdoored into one) to a river raise, but called to see that he had the nuts.
 
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MediaBLITZ

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You do realize 2 pair is an average winning hand? Are you over rating it?
 
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quick

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I think as long as you're betting them appropriately and still losing it's variance. Obviously if you're going nuts betting small two pair hard on a flush board or with lots of big cards on board and getting played back at...you need to reconsider your move on the turn. Or if you're sure you're ahead make sure you're betting hard to make them pay for their draws.

Last night alone I got beat no less than 5 times by bigger 2p turned, rivered, or otherwise counterfeited. I lost my two pair in one hand to a guy with K5o when the river gave him higher two pair on the board better kicker. And the guy was betting like a maniac with air the whole hand!

I also lost two pair to a higher made two pair on river because i misread the guy and checked the turn. I also flopped a set of 7s and lost about 190BB to a guy who was maniac betting all night with air mostly and catching river, he flopped a set of As on my 7s the ONE time I think i've got him crushed. It happens.

Just make sure you're remaining aware of the board and villian's betting when you have 2p.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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Probably because you treat it as the nuts.
 
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ranma187

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To lose less... instead of going all in on the flop and check raising all in. simply value bet it to the river and see if it holds. if you get re raised, you have to think: did he hit his draw, set or only tptk? You have to think about your opponents range.
 
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ranma187

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I also lost two pair to a higher made two pair on river because i misread the guy and checked the turn. I also flopped a set of 7s and lost about 190BB to a guy who was maniac betting all night with air mostly and catching river, he flopped a set of As on my 7s the ONE time I think i've got him crushed. It happens.

Just make sure you're remaining aware of the board and villian's betting when you have 2p.


I hate sets of 77's lol i got drawn out on twice with the people hitting their straights.
 
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GWU73

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2 Pair is the AVERAGE strength of a winning hand in Hold em. If the pot gets big, especially if it is multi-way, you should generally have trips or better to commit. If you think about it, what hands can give action to your two pair? Often it will be sets, straights, and flushes. Sometimes draws. Most decent players are not going to go crazy with TPTK in no limit.
 
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MinhANguyen

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I don't get how people are saying 2pr+ is the average winning hand in poker... One pair is usually the best hand or even A high by showdown, especially HU.
 
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Poker247

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While 2 pair can seems like the nuts, it is often only an average hand by the time you get to the river. You need to take into account preflop action and board texture to help you determine what your opponent is likely to have. If there are 2+ other people in the pot, your chances of winning with 2 pair go down...not that you can't win, but straights, flushes, and trips become more likely the more players in the hand. Even AA preflop doesn't do as well as you'd think postflop if there are 3+ others in the hand. Work on your hand reading skills (online, based on bet sizing and notes from previous play with that opponent) to help you determine when your 2 pair is good.
 
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Sidetracked

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2 pr can be a very vulnerable hand.

Play the hand appropriately to how the board develops. Also, if you flop bottom 2, be aware of how the hand can easily get counterfeited.
 
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CactusCat

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You can play it more passively in full ring. Top 2 pair is significantly better than bottom 2. On 10-9-8 and J-10-9, obviously don't go nuts with 98 or 109.

If people are raising you on a dry flop like 10-8-3, what choice do you have but to play for stacks? If you think he's raising with A10/K10 or overpairs (if you're leading out), or would bet-call off with them (he's c-betting, you decide to flat or raise), you are the favorite and need to pile it in.

6-max, those coordinated flops are still highly dangerous. Some players will not get out of line or overvalue TPTK, in which case you're up against sets, two pairs, or big combo hands TPTK + flush draw. Generally the aggression is higher the shorter-handed you get.

Learn the spots - if they raised from early position and are staying in the hand, could they have JJ-AA? In that case I'd play for stacks. It doesn't matter if I have bottom two or top two vs. those hands, so just hope to hold and not get counterfeited.

Whereas the range from the cutoff or blinds may include lots of those hands with tons of equity vs. 2 pair. Now his range either crushes you or is extremely live, or flipping with you on the flop. Even on the turn if you are still ahead he will have ~30% equity going into the river. In which case I may proceed cautiously and prepare to pitch the hand if a bad turn or river peels off.

Don't forget - sometimes you will crush the turn. If you flop T9c on 3c-10x-4c. You get raised. You call. Then an offsuit 9 comes. Now you have Top-2 + flush draw. You'll be 30% even against bottom set going to the river and you have overpairs + 34 drawing super thin. Rip it in. You'll sense when an opponent is extremely strong, or trying to get to showdown, and you will bet big or slam the brakes accordingly.

Once you have strong reads of your players and understand the range of hands they'll show up with in common situations, you'll see your win rate with these hands spike in a big way.
 
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polo kwan

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Is it the reason that you always play connected cards?
 
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CashBerry

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Bad run..

its very typical with hands like A10 vs Q10 flops AQ10 (example)
 
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AcesDJD

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If you're flopping top and bottom pair, say you played K2 and the flop came K102, this is the type of flop you can get killed on, as so many players still love the broadway hands. So anyway, if you keep getting beat with top and bottom you need to go back to tighter hand ranges. IF you keep getting beat ONLY with top two, then this may be bad luck. Of course be prepared to fold on ordered boards 8,9,10 KQJ, or boards that come three to a flush. The best scenario there is that they've called you with a flush and maybe you can hit one of your outs for a full house. Good luck.
 
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untamed1987

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Playing a $1 sit n go, short stacked with 8 BB. Limped with 4h 6h on the button, flop comes 4s 9d 6c, i shove, He calls with KKs turn Qh river is the 9s, rivers a higher 2 pair. #whatcanyoudo.
 
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untamed1987

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Just like this? First hand of the pokerschool highschool tournament this morning.

PokerStars Hand #182959197294: Tournament #2196589185, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level I (20/40) - 2018/02/24 6:10:12 WET [2018/02/24 1:10:12 ET]
Table '2196589185 25' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Rekop986 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: setta555 (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: StarsiKk (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: DskUntamed (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: fajerbol (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: Justinmaaan (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: VAL1962 (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: Klausthewall (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: WH@LEV@S (1500 in chips)
setta555: posts small blind 20
StarsiKk: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DskUntamed [Td Qc]
DskUntamed: calls 40
fajerbol has timed out while being disconnected
fajerbol: folds
fajerbol is sitting out
Justinmaaan: folds
VAL1962: folds
Klausthewall: folds
WH@LEV@S: raises 40 to 80
fajerbol is disconnected
Rekop986: calls 80
setta555: folds
StarsiKk: folds
DskUntamed: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [Ts Qd 8d]
DskUntamed: bets 180
WH@LEV@S: folds
Rekop986: raises 330 to 510
DskUntamed: raises 910 to 1420 and is all-in
Rekop986: calls 910 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Ts Qd 8d] [6d]
*** RIVER *** [Ts Qd 8d 6d] [6h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DskUntamed: shows [Td Qc] (two pair, Queens and Tens)
Rekop986: shows [9h Jh] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
Rekop986 collected 3140 from pot
DskUntamed finished the tournament in 395th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3140 | Rake 0
Board [Ts Qd 8d 6d 6h]
Seat 1: Rekop986 (button) showed [9h Jh] and won (3140) with a straight, Eight to Queen
Seat 2: setta555 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: StarsiKk (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: DskUntamed showed [Td Qc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Tens
Seat 5: fajerbol folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Justinmaaan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: VAL1962 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Klausthewall folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: WH@LEV@S folded on the Flop
 
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white_vision0

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Be carreful not to overrate 2 pairs. It depends on how many players are on the flop and so many other aspects .
 
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martkal44

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I lose 90% of the time?

Is it truly 90%? We often only remember the bad beats and forget about when we suck out on other players and bad beat. Then when the situation arises in future, we fear the badbeat happening...and guess what? It happens, only to forget quickly when it holds up and wins....why do we forget? Because we tell ourselves that we should be winning those situations anyway.

Variance is a bummer but the maths part of poker always works out in the long run. AA all in heads up preflop for example does get beat but over a large sample it'll work out near to its 80%.

If you truly are losing 90% of the hands then maybe you're not being aggresive enough when flopping two pair? Many players will slow play when flopping monster hands...because they don't want their opponent to fold. What you're basically doing is allowing the VILLIAN infinity/1 odds on hitting any possible nut draws. THIS IS BAD!!!

There is no shame in winning the pot there and then. Make a bet and let your opponent make a bad decision in calling. If you get beat then so what. You made the right play.

You should post some hand histories of these beats and some of the better players on this forum can hep work out if there are any possible flaws in the plays?

Out of interest, I ran 23s on a flop of 237 Rainbow against a range of 100% hands and HERO wins 85.1%.

Best of luck on the felt!
 
steeler1970

steeler1970

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Hello. Can anyone explain to me why is that when I flopped two pair, even top two pair, I lose 90% of the time? It just doesn't seem right to loose so often when you flop so well with two pair. It's gotten to the point where I damn near feel sick when I flop two pair. i agree with i am to the point go just go all in when i got somethings
 
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