flop and post flop play

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anthony c

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Hello guys

I only got 2 questions:
I keep on hearing about playing hands that play well on the flop and post flop what kind of hands are they and why?10js i think is 1 but if u hit a draw on the
flop u can get yourself in deep trouble if u miss or hit top pair:confused:

What do u do if u have aqs in bb on a loose passive table and have 4 callers do u bet the same as 1 or 2 callers or do u bet more.(wont they get a read if u bet more?)u bet and get 2 or 3 callers and flop is 5c 6c 9d do u c bet in 2 players or do u check and if u get reraised what u just fold?Is there another way to play this hand?

is there a difference in cash games and tournaments and why?

thx guys and good luck at the tables
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Hello guys

I only got 2 questions: LIAR! ;)
I keep on hearing about playing hands that play well on the flop and post flop what kind of hands are they and why?10js i think is 1 but if u hit a draw on the
flop u can get yourself in deep trouble if u miss or hit top pair:confused:

Well part of it playing well on the flop is the fact that it can hit a draw. And yes that can also get you in trouble but that's where you yourself have to "play well on the flop and post flop". You gotta know your percentages, outs, pot odds and all to really help give some direction on how far to take it. Too many variables for me to get into right now but maybe some else will take stab.

What do u do if u have aqs in bb on a loose passive table and have 4 callers do u bet the same as 1 or 2 callers or do u bet more.(wont they get a read if u bet more?)

You raise that up and try to make that guy playing 78o understand he's picked a bad time to come into the pot. You DO NOT want 4 other people in the hand. With 4 other people your nice looking AQ is only 30% to win this hand. Versus a solo opponent you are 64%. You cut your chances by over 50% by not raising. Don't worry about that read - I mean what are they going to read? That you are stronger than they are and should runaway and let you have their money?

u bet and get 2 or 3 callers and flop is 5c 6c 9d do u c bet in 2 players or do u check and if u get reraised what u just fold?Is there another way to play this hand?

See - now if you did not raise you don't know what in the world to do here. They could be in there with 56 or 78 and just like you fear - your nice AQ ain't worth squat. You missed and have to step aside because they could have easily hit this. We don't have a clue because 1) there are so many of them, and 2) they did not have to invest very much at all to see the flop.
BUT let's say you raised 7x the BB. Now you are down to one opponent, maybe two. Now you can start making some intelligent assumptions. Would Player X have called that PF raise with 56s??? Maybe, maybe not - but now you can exercise your previous observations and come up with a likely answer. He's played very tight so far and hasn't seen many flops - so probably not. We can assume for now he missed the flop also. If he's the only guy to worry about then you c-bet, he probably folds and it's over. But uh oh - there's that other guy. He likes to chase flushes. We c-bet and he flat calls to see the flop. If we can avoid a club we can probably keep going. But we also have to be very wary of the straight that could come together for this guy who might have called with suited connectors like 67. This discussion of what might happen could go on for a long time, but the point is if you raise it up you can eliminate or at least minimize a whole lot of mights that would exist had you not raised.

is there a difference in cash games and tournaments and why?

Very much so. A different skill/strategy set comes into play. Poker is poker and a cash player can do really well BUT will most certainly be faced with having to deviate from solid cash game play over and over, but the trick is knowing when and how. But I have a tourney myself to get ready for right now so hopefully someone else will enlighten.

thx guys and good luck at the tables

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
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Arjonius

Arjonius

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Cash games and tournaments differ for various reasons that are numerous and can be complex enough to warrant a book, not just a reply in a forum thread. That said, I'll outline a couple.

One is the in freezeouts, you have the value of your tournament life to consider whereas in cash games, you can buy in again and/or add to your stack as you wish. Even in rebuy tournaments, when you do rebuy, your stack has less than full value. For example, say 100 players start and 10 rebuy immediately. Your starting stack is 1/110 of the total chips in play. If you bust first and rebuy, your new stack is 1/111 of the total.

Also, since the blinds increase over time in tournaments, the depth of your stack changes. An obvious effect is to increase the importance of stealing blinds. It's not nearly as important in a cash game where you're likely to have 100BB or more, but in a tournament, you'll see many situations where a successful steal will add a significant percentage to your stack; e.g. if you have 15BB, a steal adds 10%, or more if there are antes in play.
 
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anthony c

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Thx guys for the info but i just had 2 main quistions and i wanted to know
what type of hands play well on and after the flop and why?

ty
 
Ezekiel162

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Very good stuff MediaBLITZ. You have reminded me why aggression is important even in the face of variance. Been having problems lately and was realizing I had been playing much more passively. I got something out of the response even if noone else did...
 
MediaBLITZ

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Oh Anthony buddy, I hate to do this to you, but the answer is a flat out - it depends.
Just too many if's and's or but's to cover in a forum. It's not just the criteria of your cards but (for example) it is also your position and who else is in the hand (and how many of them are there). Maybe if we take this direction it might help.

As usual I am not going to come close to a complete answer but am hoping other guys like Arjonius will jump on board and complete what I try to start.

TRYING TO DEFINE THE CRITERIA OF WHAT TYPES OF HANDS PLAY WELL AFTER THE FLOP?
Hands that contain lot's of outs (potential) to make a premium hand. Suited connectors can fit in this category. Let's say 78s. What makes 78s so grerat is it is connected and suited giving you a start to something good. What also is good is the two cards are right smack dab in the middle meaning a fairly decent chance of improving on the flop - (as opposed to a pocket pair, which is great, but will probably only significantly improve by hitting a two outter) to a decent drawing hand. You could hit a flush draw, you could hit an outside straight draw, and inside straight draw or even a double gutshot straight draw - or you could even hit any of those on flop and make your hand there.
But a pocket pair - how many chances are there to improve?
But AK - one end of your straight opportunities is closed off. You have to hit 3 pretty specific cards to make a straight because there is only one end to work from. You do have power, but unless you can match it up 78s might crush you just because so many flops that will not help AK will in fact help 78s.

So great, you get 78s and linp in to see if you can hit, right? WRONG! Here's another reason how 78s plays well after the flop. Let's say your 78s is going to the flop against AK and the flop comes 26J. Well that flop didn't hit anybody and AK knows it. He also figures he might be still the leader in this hand and can bet out. How does he figure this? Because 78s LIMPED and indicated weakness. He also knows he has 6 outs to still pair up a top card. he figures he is probably in better shape than you and can bet confidently and you have to fold. BUT if you raised before the flop he has to now figure you either hold two power cards (he hopes AQ) OR have a pocket pair which may or may not have hit a set on the flop. Either way he figure he might be running behind. The determining factor on whether or not he sticks around to see the turn card will be how much you bet. If you check he says, "Phew." and is very happy to see a K come up on the turn. You bet pot and he mutters something about big slick never comes through and has to fold. This is part of what made 78s a hand that plays well after the flop. It's not just about whether it hits or not - it's about the position it will put you in versus your opponent IF you play it right.

Now a general party line about suited connectors -
Play them in late position
Play them when several other players have entered the pot
 
MediaBLITZ

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Very good stuff MediaBLITZ. You have reminded me why aggression is important even in the face of variance. Been having problems lately and was realizing I had been playing much more passively. I got something out of the response even if noone else did...
Yeah I think I have the concept down pretty good but am still working out the execution. You still have to have a good read on your opposition and play the player.
 
Arjonius

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Poker is full of situations where "it depends", and many times, it depends on more than just the cards.

To give you a different type of example than MedisBLITZ's, let's say you're on the button and two people have limped in. Holdings like small or mid-pairs, small or mid-suited connectors, or Ax probably make up a sizable portion of their ranges, especially at the micro levels.

A hand like QJ can play pretty well here because a number of favorable scenarios can ensue, such as:
- you raise representing strength, and the limpers fold,
- you raise and iso one or both with position and initiative,
- compared to Ax, you have 2x the probability of flopping top pair,
- even if you miss, the flop will probably have at least one overcard to the small and mid-pairs as well as the suited connectors, plus you have position and initiative,
- if the flop has an A, there's still a decent chance you can get the Ax hand to fold depending on his style,
- you can flop some kind of draw yourself,

This list isn't all inclusive. The key point is that "play well" doesn't mean you'll have the best hand, but rather that it will remain playable in quite a few situations; i.e. you won't be limited to fit or fold.
 
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anthony c

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thanks allot guy very helpful:D
 
MediaBLITZ

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The key point is that "play well" doesn't mean you'll have the best hand, but rather that it will remain playable in quite a few situations; i.e. you won't be limited to fit or fold.

BINGO!!!!
 
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