First hand of 9-max MTT: UTG shove and you have Ks in the SB. What would you do?

darthdimsky

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I have been wrapping my head around this. Just encountered this situation about 6 hours back. pokerstars University League game. Stacks at 1500. 20/40 and 8 min blinds. UTG shoves and you have KK in the SB. How would you play it?

Note: If you are using a tracking program you'd know that until the first is over there's no HUD to know if you've faced this player. You're essentially playing blind.

I called and faced AA. I got knocked out
 
johnny tigre

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In this situation, skills doesnt count anymore. This is where ladyluck takes over.
I got busted a few times with KK but Id still call that shove.
 
darthdimsky

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In this situation, skills doesnt count anymore. This is where ladyluck takes over.
I got busted a few times with KK but Id still call that shove.

Thanks for the input Johnny. For all these years this question was a no brainer for me. But while reading Harrington's on Hold 'em I'm questioning some of my fundamentals. After all, the whole aim of the early stages of an MTT is to survive.

For e.g. Would you want to risk your entire stack on the off-hand chance of an A on the board vs an early stage UTG shove?

Mid-stages, late -stages and even after 1 or 2 orbits after you've observed your opponents and have some information perhaps the decision becomes easier.

PS - Perhaps this is a no brainer after all. I couldn't open an EV calc with the PS client open. I was an 81% favourite calling KK against an unknown hand.
 
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PokerNuts01

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This is freeroll, easy call.. i cant see fold with KK here. U unhappy run into AA, but 80% time this call will be good.
 
darthdimsky

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This is freeroll, easy call.. i cant see fold with KK here. U unhappy run into AA, but 80% time this call will be good.

Thanks mate. Honestly it's not that I ran into AAs that bugs me but it's more to do with going out the first hand of the tourney. I was really disappointed in myself.

Plus yea, it's a freeroll but most of the players have graduated from the earlier stages in the league so the quality of play is generally better than the average freeroll.
 
PokerNuts01

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quality of play is generally better than the average freeroll.

Yes i agree, but u also know that many player push with any pair ( 77,88..) and AK, AQs.. KK is too big hand to fold preflop lol
 
darthdimsky

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Yes i agree, but u also know that many player push with any pair ( 77,88..) and AK, AQs.. KK is too big hand to fold preflop lol

True. Statistically I'm ahead no doubt. I'll just mark that one down to bad luck.

Thanks for cheering me up.:)
 
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i call...just win to u..AK or AA....in this tourney much player all in with any hand....but if a player that u see every hand good plays maybe you fold...
 
vinnie

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Thanks for the input Johnny. For all these years this question was a no brainer for me. But while reading Harrington's on Hold 'em I'm questioning some of my fundamentals. After all, the whole aim of the early stages of an MTT is to survive.

For e.g. Would you want to risk your entire stack on the off-hand chance of an A on the board vs an early stage UTG shove?

Mid-stages, late -stages and even after 1 or 2 orbits after you've observed your opponents and have some information perhaps the decision becomes easier.

PS - Perhaps this is a no brainer after all. I couldn't open an EV calc with the PS client open. I was an 81% favourite calling KK against an unknown hand.
Harrington on Hold'em is written for much tougher fields and much deeper starting stacks than an online freeroll. The advice is fantastic, but his really early stage advice doesn't apply here. You have like 75xbb (usually) not several hundred or thousand. And the levels move faster, so you have slightly fewer hands to see before you start running short. Not a whole lot less (online is much faster than live and I have played some live games where I saw fewer hands each 30 minute round than an online game with 10 minute levels) but enough that you can't afford to be too patient.

This is also slightly different than if you had reraised, been 4 bet, 5 bet, and had him shove on the first hand of the main event. This guy massively overbet open-shoved, which means we can assume he isn't very smart/good. That means he doesn't have to have AA. Sure, Dan would say that also means we can afford to wait for a better spot, but he is talking about much slower and deeper structures.
 
darthdimsky

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i call...just win to u..AK or AA....in this tourney much player all in with any hand....but if a player that u see every hand good plays maybe you fold...

Since this was the first hand of the tournament you don't know the players. But I agree with your feedback. Thank you.
 
darthdimsky

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Harrington on Hold'em is written for much tougher fields and much deeper starting stacks than an online freeroll. The advice is fantastic, but his really early stage advice doesn't apply here. You have like 75xbb (usually) not several hundred or thousand. And the levels move faster, so you have slightly fewer hands to see before you start running short. Not a whole lot less (online is much faster than live and I have played some live games where I saw fewer hands each 30 minute round than an online game with 10 minute levels) but enough that you can't afford to be too patient.

This is also slightly different than if you had reraised, been 4 bet, 5 bet, and had him shove on the first hand of the main event. This guy massively overbet open-shoved, which means we can assume he isn't very smart/good. That means he doesn't have to have AA. Sure, Dan would say that also means we can afford to wait for a better spot, but he is talking about much slower and deeper structures.

In my defense I haven't finished the book yet. :p

Now that you mention it. The blinds are worse and exactly half of what you mentioned (37.5bb) and yes, he appeared to be a donk. I checked his name after approx half and hour and he was back down to his original stack. And yep, quality hands like this don't come around as often you'd want either.

I feel a lot better right now with the call.

My focus has more on survival in the early stages is because I'm really confident in my shortstack play in the mid stages in this format. I'm currently in top 50 in the league and am trying to get as many min cashes as I can for the end of the month.
 
vinnie

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I can't think of a situation where I ever fold KK preflop for under 40xbb, unless the person open-shoved and then flipped his hand so I could see the Aces.
 
darthdimsky

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I can't think of a situation where I ever fold KK preflop for under 40xbb, unless the person open-shoved and then flipped his hand so I could see the Aces.

If above 40bb? Say mid-high stakes MTT? Then again you probably don't see early shoves when you move up stakes....
 
vinnie

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I don't know how deep I would have to be before I consider folding. It depends a little on the opponent and their style, but there is a lot "maybe" in this sort of thing. Few ultra-tight players (the ones that are likely to have AA when they shove) are going to be open shoving deep stacks. As we get deeper, most people don't have deep stacks anyway. I will say at 100xbb, in Rush cash games, I never folded KK to open-shoves and I was +EV on those calls. Those were wild times, though, and people would open shove all sorts of things deep.

I remember once, 5c/10c, I was over $120 deep (1200xbb) and another huge stack (1100ish xbb) open-raised to 501xbb ($50.10) I min-raised to $100.10 and he snap-folded. LOL, not sure if it was a misclick or if he didn't notice how deep I was, but, 500xbb would have been a fold with KK for me. If he had opened that big and I had them.
 
malakata19

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It¨s hard fold KK preflop. I think I pay for sure. Is a wining hand with a good percent and why to fold it ??? Give me please some reasons ....
 
EvertonGirl

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Yea in freerolls I am definitely calling as opponents are shoving with ATC.

In a normal MTT I would fold and take note if I get a chance to see what vill is shoving with. In that freeoll I would note he is shoving AA very early on.

UL running into AA
 
vitorbonatto

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if you know de villain and knows he's playing seriously you can fold, even if you are a recreative player

otherwise i think i will call
 
darthdimsky

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Thanks everyone for the feedback. Was terribly disappointed at going out the first hand in a tourney. But it was the right decision and your feedback has only reinforced it.
 
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Snap call with KK 100% of the time, no hesitation.
 
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I call. I think Negreanu outlined a hand that he was in the same spot and laid down Ks to see the opponent flip queens or some high pair. He said he would never do it again and neither would I.
 
Gabinho12345

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Easy call, unlucky for you that opponent had aces.
 
TulasMoreno

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Easy call, hoping the oponent dont have AA, in those tournaments the first levels are full of fishes and players that dont take the tournament seriously, in the way the tournament gets older, the level of it its gonna be increasing.
 
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