Falling For Bad Tactics

D

doomasiggy

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 24, 2011
Total posts
1,915
Chips
0
Villain Stats: 30/0/37

poker stars $1.00+$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t300/t600 Blinds + t50 - 9 players - View hand 1722537
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG+1: t16686 M = 12.36
UTG+2: t15922 M = 11.79
MP1: t7373 M = 5.46
MP2: t13517 M = 10.01
CO: t3615 M = 2.68
BTN: t13959 M = 10.34
SB: t14365 M = 10.64
Hero (BB): t30442 M = 22.55
UTG: t10111 M = 7.49

Pre Flop: (t1350) Hero is BB with Q
diamond.gif
Q
heart.gif

UTG calls t600, 7 folds, Hero raises to t1800, UTG raises to t3000, Hero raises to t30392 all in, UTG calls t7061 all in

Flop: (t20872) A
diamond.gif
4
club.gif
7
spade.gif
(2 players - 2 are all in)

Turn: (t20872) 4
spade.gif
(2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t20872) 3
diamond.gif
(2 players - 2 are all in)

Hero Shows: :qd4: :qh4:
Villain Shows: :kc4: :ks4:

This is a hand I played recently that I played godawfully, partly because I wasn't really paying attention, and it got me thinking: what are the typical tendencies you can get from bad players that turn their hands face up?

  1. Limp/raising or limp/shoving, which is nearly always KK+.
  2. Completing the small blind. This is almost always some really really really shitty hand that they don't want to play but they hope you check and they can spike big on the flop or the turn.

What other ones can you think of?
 
C

crocops

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Total posts
27
Chips
0
For me utg call and then miniraise is like you said always KK or AA.
Ofcourse there are so many combinations and obvious tells in every position, but somehow I can't remember them now, lol
 
JusSumguy

JusSumguy

Chipmonger
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Total posts
4,271
Awards
2
Chips
0
I dunno... If I'm gettin nothing but folds every time I 3pop, I'll min raise a hand like that hoping for a steal attempt. And if it's the table lagtard, I just might let him show me where he want's his grave dug.

JusSayin... it depends.

-
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
Ever see those people who play like 6/2 over a thousand hands and then they limp from early to middle position. Flop comes like 26J rainbow and they straight up shove all in. Lol. I bet that works too.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
you're not folding QQ for 5,200 more with 16BB effective stacks with antes in play.
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
you're not folding QQ for 5,200 more with 16BB effective stacks with antes in play.

um, ok. But he should never have reraised the guy in the first place. Also he wasn't looking for advice, he knows he played it bad. We are supposed to be thinking of other situations where it is obvious what the person has or there is an obvious tell or whatev.
 
F

fugitive67

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Total posts
275
Chips
0
yeah i realize we are looking for other "similar" situations, but to me that's just a cooler, your chips were going in one way or the other ... the only way i think you can get away from that is if you had less chips, but not short-stacked and didnt want to risk your tourney life in a spot that made your poker alarm go off
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
um, ok. But he should never have reraised the guy in the first place. Also he wasn't looking for advice, he knows he played it bad. We are supposed to be thinking of other situations where it is obvious what the person has or there is an obvious tell or whatev.

Lol, is this post a level?
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
Lol, is this post a level?

Reraise, not raise. The initial raise is good. I just see no reason to shove all in over the top here. Otherwise what else don't u like about the post blue? I'm confused.
 
Last edited:
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
Reraise, not raise. The initial raise is good. I just see no reason to shove all in over the top here. Otherwise what else don't u like about the post blue? I'm confused.

Are you suggesting to just call the min-raise? Also you said "he knows he played it bad". When he played it fine.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
Are you suggesting to just call the min-raise? Also you said "he knows he played it bad". When he played it fine.

he played it fine, doing anything else is giving away money.

folding QQ that short ever is a leak, results oriented ITT.

we can't call, we can't fold.. so that leaves shoving.

the point of the OP was things that fish do to turn their hand face up, such as the min raise = AA/KK/AK, not a HA.
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
Are you suggesting to just call the min-raise? Also you said "he knows he played it bad". When he played it fine.

I am suggesting that. Is that bad?

Also, the OP said he played the hand "godawfully" so...
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
the point of the OP was things that fish do to turn their hand face up, such as the min raise = AA/KK/AK, not a HA.

I don't think so because he talks about completing the small blind hoping for a check. He is talking about things fish do that are tells.
 
JusSumguy

JusSumguy

Chipmonger
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Total posts
4,271
Awards
2
Chips
0
The OP is wrong, he played it standardly.

Agreed

his response could have been the old cooler tilt. I'm certainly gettin it in PF facing a reraise to my min raise. To be honest, that's just what I'd be waiting for.

Just a cooler.

-
 
Reptar7

Reptar7

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 12, 2012
Total posts
783
Chips
0
Tell me what you plan to do on these flops and you might realise yourself:

27J
489
23K

We are second to act, but if he checks I always shove. If he bets, I shove/call the first two and fold the third. Might call a very small bet on the third.

I'm guessing what you are getting at is that his range is KQ+ (or similar) so he has a lot of pockets in his range and he is always going to follow through with pockets even if he has JJ or lower since he basically pot committed himself on the reraise. So on that K flop he probably will shove JJ and lower pairs, which we beat.

That would probably be the standard analysis of the hand right? And based on that you don't fold and raising would be correct as you aren't ever folding and the added aggression could force a fold or at least get you in ahead. I just think maybe we can narrow the range further based on position and the villain's stats, and I would put him on AK, AQ, AJ, maybe AT, maybe KQ, AA-TT. In that narrow of a range an ace card is disaster and a K isn't too good either, so just calling to get a better feel for the hand might be okay. I would fold to an ace flop if the guy shoved it or even bet half pot, even though the standard range doesn't call for that. If the hero is running a HUD, he also has more info on how the villain plays flops which could be very helpful, as the guy appears to be a LP player, yet he is playing this in sort of a "I want to get the money in eventually" type manner.

It also depends on the tourney structure, # of people left, how many hands the villain has played (it could be only 10), if they are ITM, when the money is, and a whole host of other factors.
 
Last edited:
R

recoveryagent

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Total posts
135
Chips
0
i call it a occupational hazard when my qq runs into kk or any pr that is opposing a larger 1.with me if in the money and depending on stack weather i call the reraise sometime u have to cut your losses
 
B

BlueNowhere

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 1, 2011
Total posts
4,234
Chips
0
We are second to act, but if he checks I always shove. If he bets, I shove/call the first two and fold the third. Might call a very small bet on the third.

I'm guessing what you are getting at is that his range is KQ+ (or similar) so he has a lot of pockets in his range and he is always going to follow through with pockets even if he has JJ or lower since he basically pot committed himself on the reraise. So on that K flop he probably will shove JJ and lower pairs, which we beat.

That would probably be the standard analysis of the hand right? And based on that you don't fold and raising would be correct as you aren't ever folding and the added aggression could force a fold or at least get you in ahead. I just think maybe we can narrow the range further based on position and the villain's stats, and I would put him on AK, AQ, AJ, maybe AT, maybe KQ, AA-TT. In that narrow of a range an ace card is disaster and a K isn't too good either, so just calling to get a better feel for the hand might be okay. I would fold to an ace flop if the guy shoved it or even bet half pot, even though the standard range doesn't call for that. If the hero is running a HUD, he also has more info on how the villain plays flops which could be very helpful, as the guy appears to be a LP player, yet he is playing this in sort of a "I want to get the money in eventually" type manner.

It also depends on the tourney structure, # of people left, how many hands the villain has played (it could be only 10), if they are ITM, when the money is, and a whole host of other factors.

What I was getting at is that if you want to shove the first two then you may as well have shoved pre (he won't fold to your shove pre and you let any weird hands like JJ get ahead of you and potentially hands like 77 get away). Then if a K or an A comes you give him a chance to let you blow you off your hand with some random crap that he decided would be fun to limp/raise. Shoving is clearly best.
 
Top