Exploiting Tourney Risk Aversion (Day 28 Course Discussion)

Debi · Apr 19, 2020

In Exploiting Tourney Risk Aversion we learn how stack sizes determine how to play on final tables, bubbles and pay jump situations.

If you have not yet read Day 28 and watched the video for Day 28 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

Exploiting Tourney Risk Aversion

In this thread we will talk about how to play short stacks, medium stacks and big stacks in situations where we have potential pay jumps. Did you get the quiz question right?

Polytarp · Apr 29, 2020

Here is the final table of today's poker stars CC game where I semi-bluffed the second place chip leader. I was able to double my stack and not long after I had QJu (at the cutoff I think) and went all in. This time the chip leader had AK and called where high cards won the hand. There were no other callers.

Would this be taking the concept too far or did I do the right thing? I think I did but in larger games I don't know if this is a good course of action or a recipe for disaster.

Collin Moshman · Apr 30, 2020

That depends on the pre-flop action. This looks a little bit light maybe with just the 4-out draw against the chip leader, but if you felt you had a lot of fold equity based on your reads, it can definitely be effective applying this much pressure. Nice work on the FT!

cferdi · May 12, 2020

I think I'm (or was) one of those 'instinctive' players Collin mentions when he says something about even players who don't know about concepts such as ICM will have an instinctive reaction in these situations. But I always feel more comfortable when I reach top table as I generally tend to do ok unless I am very short-stacked.

For the quiz question I admit that my answer was "I'd normally fold, but you're gonna say shove" - lol. I might have some trouble getting to grips with the 'any two cards' situation. Mainly because I am not what one would call a 'lucky' player; and generally if I do something like shove (even with my best hands) I find that someone will call and I'll either be facing a monster or outdrawn.

I have seen others play this way when chip leader and come face to face with call after call from better hands that win and soon become the short stack or out. I even tried it myself once or twice with the same result; so I tend to try to keep pressure up but not quite with any two cards - is this wrong?

P.S. In the book, the box at the top of p.137 says "The Mid Stack" : I think it should say "The Big Stack" as we now have two mid stack boxes

Collin Moshman · May 13, 2020

Yes that's exactly right Cferdi. Keep up the pressure but you can over-do it. Usually if you're playing any two cards from all positions, you are taking things way too far!

And thanks for the book correction, we will take a look at this!

Phoenix Wright · May 15, 2020

Collin Moshman said:
...And thanks for the book correction, we will take a look at this!

I noticed this small detail too. I really liked the video for this lesson as well. It has a lot of heads up examples that are instructional in just how powerful shoving can be due to fold equity. Speaking of heads up play, I just recently bought one of your books Collin; Heads Up No Limit Holdem Expert Advice for Winning Heads-up. It is a book I am eager to read soon (as soon as I finish the book I am currently reading).

Debi · May 17, 2020

cferdi said:
I think I'm (or was) one of those 'instinctive' players Collin mentions when he says something about even players who don't know about concepts such as ICM will have an instinctive reaction in these situations. But I always feel more comfortable when I reach top table as I generally tend to do ok unless I am very short-stacked.

For the quiz question I admit that my answer was "I'd normally fold, but you're gonna say shove" - lol. I might have some trouble getting to grips with the 'any two cards' situation. Mainly because I am not what one would call a 'lucky' player; and generally if I do something like shove (even with my best hands) I find that someone will call and I'll either be facing a monster or outdrawn.

I have seen others play this way when chip leader and come face to face with call after call from better hands that win and soon become the short stack or out. I even tried it myself once or twice with the same result; so I tend to try to keep pressure up but not quite with any two cards - is this wrong?

P.S. In the book, the box at the top of p.137 says "The Mid Stack" : I think it should say "The Big Stack" as we now have two mid stack boxes

Oops - we will try to get that fixed soon!

jeanpierre1279 · May 17, 2020

Day 28 - Exploiting Tourney Risk Aversion

I really enjoyed this chapter, because we often need to be aggressive in the game to exploit aggressive players, maniacs or even against regular players, but when we become chip leaders, what do we do next?

It is very strange for me to suddenly have to become a loser, but whoever plays in tournaments is usually sure that this is the most profitable way to play.

Tournament risk aversion is very effective and really difficult for me to be a totally looser or aggressive player with the chips that were so difficult to conquer.

Now an important piece of information for me and that I have observed in tournaments is that when we have a good spot even in the bubble, we do not let it pass because the big stack will play all hands and maybe another good chance will not return.

If we don't play because of our tournament life, the smallest stack plays with good equity and we who are going to be eliminated, this happened several times with me in the bubble.

Collin Moshman · May 18, 2020

jeanpierre1279 said:
I really enjoyed this chapter, because we often need to be aggressive in the game to exploit aggressive players, maniacs or even against regular players, but when we become chip leaders, what do we do next?

It is very strange for me to suddenly have to become a loser, but whoever plays in tournaments is usually sure that this is the most profitable way to play.

Tournament risk aversion is very effective and really difficult for me to be a totally looser or aggressive player with the chips that were so difficult to conquer.

Now an important piece of information for me and that I have observed in tournaments is that when we have a good spot even in the bubble, we do not let it pass because the big stack will play all hands and maybe another good chance will not return.

If we don't play because of our tournament life, the smallest stack plays with good equity and we who are going to be eliminated, this happened several times with me in the bubble.

That's the key question, and a real art to the game. Once you're chip leader or have a big final table stack, it's usually right to ramp up the pressure. But sometimes you need to know when to stand back, e.g. if maniacs or colliding. It's a fun problem to have

belizebum · May 22, 2020

I think I may be a bit too passive when I am the big stack, that being said, I have tried to be more aggressive and then some donk comes along and takes my chips..leading me to be mid or low stack...so I am going to have to find some middle ground.

Luvart · May 27, 2020

Finished Day #28.

This is an important, and complex at the same time, concept, although I think that beginners should firstly learn and absorb all the fundamental knowledge about playing the MTT format of poker. After that, comes the ICM and getting familiarized with this.

There is an interesting hand in the video with the AQo hand. I think the ~4x 3bet from opponent is definitely something quite strong and puts us in a tough spot. But we block AA, QQ, AK, so we have the A live card if we face KK, we will play a flip vs the majority of pairs and we dominate all non-made hands except for AK. There is a risk, but there will be a huge reward if we win the hand, we must know what type of opponent we are facing. I think I would make the 4bet-rejam, but we need to have some more information on opponent.

For the quiz question, we are on the bubble with the big stack of the table. With the 95s I would fold it and wait at least one round more to make a move.

Tomorrow with Day #29.

Collin Moshman · May 27, 2020

Nice Luvart, keep up the progress. Almost finished with the course!

redboy23 · May 28, 2020

Hi CCers,

I made it to the final table in a $.10 recently, but was very short stacked. This was because I decided not to be the bubble boy or bust out close to the money, which is becoming way to frequent for my taste.

I have decided to pay closer attention to my position and not risk making the money in a deep run unless I absolutely have too. Too often, I am positioned in the money and get into a heated pot and bust out. I have had too many nightmares busting out of CC freerolls with an above average stack size!

Response to video question:

Although many big stacks will shove there, I think that my lead on the villains is not big enough to put pressure with 95s by shoving. On a slightly better hand, I would consider betting 3 X BB there.

This is probably way too tight, since I have called shoves against big stacks many times and came close to crying when their 95s and the like win my AK or AQ.

Knowing the play is equitable and mustering the courage to do it are two entirely different things. I admire the gunslingers who can make those calls and come out unscathed!

It is a thing of beauty really and big stacks can be so annoying.

PsychoVas · May 29, 2020

Interesting concepts. It's not easy for me to be the big-stack-bully, emotionally, but I definitely have to learn it.

Collin Moshman · Jun 5, 2020

redboy23 said:
Hi CCers,

I made it to the final table in a $.10 recently, but was very short stacked. This was because I decided not to be the bubble boy or bust out close to the money, which is becoming way to frequent for my taste.

I have decided to pay closer attention to my position and not risk making the money in a deep run unless I absolutely have too. Too often, I am positioned in the money and get into a heated pot and bust out. I have had too many nightmares busting out of CC freerolls with an above average stack size!

Response to video question:

Although many big stacks will shove there, I think that my lead on the villains is not big enough to put pressure with 95s by shoving. On a slightly better hand, I would consider betting 3 X BB there.

This is probably way too tight, since I have called shoves against big stacks many times and came close to crying when their 95s and the like win my AK or AQ.

Knowing the play is equitable and mustering the courage to do it are two entirely different things. I admire the gunslingers who can make those calls and come out unscathed!

It is a thing of beauty really and big stacks can be so annoying.

You can take it too far for sure if you're frequently busting before short stacks when you're one of the bigger stacks at or near a final table. But keep in mind: One first place might be worth 20x a 9th place. Going for it usually pays off in the long run. So keep up the good work in the freerolls!

Debi · Jul 12, 2020

How are you guys doing with Day 28? Once you are comfortable with Risk Aversion you are almost done with the course!

zam220 · Jul 13, 2020

If I have a large stack, then I try to play aggressively! But often I make a mistake and play very risky with a large stack and therefore I fly out much earlier from the tournament!

Collin Moshman · Jul 13, 2020

zam220 said:
If I have a large stack, then I try to play aggressively! But often I make a mistake and play very risky with a large stack and therefore I fly out much earlier from the tournament!

That's a good point that you can play too aggressively with the big stack. Particularly if opponents start playing back at you a lot, settle down and start waiting to pick up some hands to take advantage of your very loose image

Good Man · Nov 1, 2020

The main advantage of a chipleader is its stack. Accordingly, it is not necessary to unload it in marginal distributions, but it is better to play less dispersively, play small banks relative to the stack. Well, at the beginning of the tournament, opponents have little to lose, so trying to put pressure on someone with glass will not work. But on the money and in the late stage, it is natural to increase the pressure, because the opponents already have something to lose.
In the initial stages, I play as usual and played, and closer to the later stages I play aggressively, open wider, make three bets more often and 4B too, push two barrels more often even if the garbage is on my hands, but I don't try not to get involved in big banks with marginal hands. My problem is that I have the biggest stack in my hands and it doesn't last long and I'm out of the tournament having been a chipleader before. And it's frustrating.
What can you recommend?

Life is a game , play beautiful

Collin Moshman · Nov 2, 2020

Good Man said:
The main advantage of a chipleader is its stack. Accordingly, it is not necessary to unload it in marginal distributions, but it is better to play less dispersively, play small banks relative to the stack. Well, at the beginning of the tournament, opponents have little to lose, so trying to put pressure on someone with glass will not work. But on the money and in the late stage, it is natural to increase the pressure, because the opponents already have something to lose.
In the initial stages, I play as usual and played, and closer to the later stages I play aggressively, open wider, make three bets more often and 4B too, push two barrels more often even if the garbage is on my hands, but I don't try not to get involved in big banks with marginal hands. My problem is that I have the biggest stack in my hands and it doesn't last long and I'm out of the tournament having been a chipleader before. And it's frustrating.
What can you recommend?

Life is a game , play beautiful

I recommend just to make sure you're picking your spots well.

For example, let's say at the start of a final table you have a big chip lead but there are a few maniacs at the table who keep on colliding. I wouldn't try to take advantage of my stack in this type of situation -- instead I would just play a nice TAG strategy while they collide and I get paid off when I pick up a hand.

Good Man · Nov 2, 2020

Collin Moshman said:
I recommend just to make sure you're picking your spots well.

For example, let's say at the start of a final table you have a big chip lead but there are a few maniacs at the table who keep on colliding. I wouldn't try to take advantage of my stack in this type of situation -- instead I would just play a nice TAG strategy while they collide and I get paid off when I pick up a hand.

Thank you Colin, I will remember your words during the game. And I won't go along with the maniacs.

Life is a game , play beautiful

carmenzu · Nov 15, 2020

Yes, here the big stacks exert pressure and act like neighborhood thugs lol

Katie Dozier · Nov 15, 2020

carmenzu said:
Yes, here the big stacks exert pressure and act like neighborhood thugs lol

Lol at the “neighborhood thugs” simile! Next time I’m being particularly aggressive, I’ll think of myself as a neighborhood thug! [emoji41]🤣

Phyrrura · Dec 13, 2020

Sad it's ending

I came until here, I enjoyed very much to run this road, and I'm really glad that it worthed every minute spent in this classes!

I'm sure this one class is very useful, but for the low stakes it just doesn't work very well when there are villains who like to gamble a lot.

Collin Moshman · Dec 15, 2020

Phyrrura said:
I came until here, I enjoyed very much to run this road, and I'm really glad that it worthed every minute spent in this classes!

I'm sure this one class is very useful, but for the low stakes it just doesn't work very well when there are villains who like to gamble a lot.

Thanks Phyrrura!

I think that exploiting risk aversion does still work at most low-stakes games so long as it's very deep. If you're playing a $0.10 tourney with 1000 entrants for example, the players might gamble a ton early on average and rarely fold. But at the final table with $15 for first, mid stacks will still likely tighten up if you're pressuring them as a big stack.

Exploiting Tourney Risk Aversion (Day 28 Course Discussion)

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