Ever wondered what "M" is...

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 8, 2010

Ive decided its time i contribute to this forum a little more, ive started to post alot in the MTT hand section, and im going to post a little something here, for newish players, about what "M" is, and how to interpret it into your MTT game.

Sometimes, when converting hand histories you may see a players M, displayed, if you have ever wondered what it is, here is your answer...

So what is this "M" business?

A Players "M", which can also be called "M Factor" or "M-Ratio" its all the same thing dw, and to keep things simple im just gonna use "M", is basically, a measurement of how healthy your chip stack is, i order to play each orbit (or round of blinds).

M is mostly used in pot limit and no limit holdem, and tournament poker, M can be considered in cash games, but its significantly less effective, due to the fact a player can reload their stack at any one time.

Simply put

Having a high "M" means a player can sit back and relax, there is no need to make any moves because your stack can healthily afford "M Laps" which is a round of blinds, or an orbit.

If you have a low "M", you are under alot of pressure from the blinds and antes to make moves with alot more hands, due to the damage the blinds and antes are causing to your stack.

Ok, but how do i know what my "M" is?

Its alot easier to calculate your M than you may think.

You simply, Divide your current stack size, between the combined value of 1BB, 1SB, and total antes.

For Example: If, 6 handed, you have a 100,000 stack, at 1000/2000 levels, with 200 antes. Your M would be

M= 100,000/ 1000+2000 = 3000 + 6x 200 = 1200 = 100,000/4200 ~ 24

So, how do i know if my "M" is good?

Taken from Harrington on Holdem (Obv i cant take all credit

)

If your "M" is 20 or Above = You are perfect, you can feel free to play as aggresively or conservatively as you want.

When your "M" is between 10 and 19 = You have to take on a little more risk, and your low pairs and connectors loose alot of value

When your "M" is betwen 6 and 9 = It becomes highly important to preserve your chips for the right situations because......

When Your "M" is between 2 and 6 = Your only option is an all in or fold game, the blinds and antes are affecting you stack incredibly, there is not enough value in a simple raise.

Once your "M" gets to 1 = You are 100% dependant on luck, you should never let yourself get into this situation.

I hope my post on "M" atleast helps a few people a little

I have interpretted it into my MTT game for a while now, and it really does give you an idea on what range you should be playing, how much your raises should be, and really helps you feel alot more comfortable around the table

Thanks for reading (if you did

)

Good luck at the tables

FTP

PattyR · Mar 8, 2010

is a "M" of 20 really perfect?...i start to get a little nervous when it gets around 20?...and i thought and "M" of 10 or less was shove or fold...i didn know there was difference between 2-6 and 7-10...just some thoughts

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 8, 2010

PattyR said:
is a "M" of 20 really perfect?...i start to get a little nervous when it gets around 20?...and i thought and "M" of 10 or less was shove or fold...i didn know there was difference between 2-6 and 7-10...just some thoughts

20 is perfect, you probably fear a little around 20 because you dont seem to be much above average stack and so on? If this is right you should never worry about average stack and how much your above it, it means nothing, if you have plenty of BB's and pick your spots right youll get there. Usually the chip leader ina tournament will have a very high M, maybe 40+, that doesnt make your 20 M uncomfortable, it just means hes running like god basically, and like said if you pick your spots right youll get there.

An M of 10 isnt shove or fold, you still have enough "M Laps" in your stack to be able to afford to not have to shove, but obviously when your M is around 10 if someone opens to say 3x the BB usually your re raise is all in.

You honestly really dont need to play an all in or fold game until your "M" is around 6, because you dont have enough back to make standard raises.

And an M of 1 is just like posted where your forced all in by blinds and antes. And you depend on luck

Any more questions ask away.

wetyeti · Mar 8, 2010

Great post! It took me a while to get the difference between M and how many blinds I have. When I get to around 10 bb, I am thinking all in or fold. But with an M of ten I am not so pressured.
I really like that you brought the relative unimportance of average chip stacks when compared to M status.
Again, great post. You really made it easy to understand the idea behind M status.
Thanks man.

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 8, 2010

wetyeti said:
Great post! It took me a while to get the difference between M and how many blinds I have. When I get to around 10 bb, I am thinking all in or fold. But with an M of ten I am not so pressured.
I really like that you brought the relative unimportance of average chip stacks when compared to M status.
Again, great post. You really made it easy to understand the idea behind M status.
Thanks man.

I really appreciate your kind words, thank you very much

and i hope you can put it to good use

Good luck at the tables sir

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 8, 2010

Im Actually going to post how important of a point that actually is wetyeti

When playing a tourament, and its a leak in alot of peoples games i believe is instead of taking your "M" into consideration, you instead, take the size of your stack in comparison to the average stack of the tourney and the biggest stack of the tourney.

This is something you should try not to do, whats important in an MTT is how many BB's you have and picking your spots correctely, you should ignore the fact that 1st place may have an "M" of around 100 because then when you look at your stack and see you have an "M" of lets say for the sake of this argument 25, you may think your not that comfortable when actually, if you refer to the OP you will see that with an "M" of 25 you are incredibly comfortable. And if you pick the right spots, and make the right raises taking your "M" into consideration you too could have an "M" of 85 in the later stages of the MTT.

So please, make sure it is your "M" that makes you decide whether you have a good stack, not your stack compared to the average stack and big stack

Gl at the tables

FTP

cjatud2012 · Mar 8, 2010

wetyeti said:
Great post! It took me a while to get the difference between M and how many blinds I have. When I get to around 10 bb, I am thinking all in or fold. But with an M of ten I am not so pressured.
I really like that you brought the relative unimportance of average chip stacks when compared to M status.
Again, great post. You really made it easy to understand the idea behind M status.
Thanks man.

FTP_TheNuts said:
Im Actually going to post how important of a point that actually is wetyeti

...

So please, make sure it is your "M" that makes you decide whether you have a good stack, not your stack compared to the average stack and big stack

Gl at the tables

FTP

You can look at this from the other end too. If, for example, you are in first of a turbo tournament, you might be way ahead of the average stack, but your M might still be around 10, so you can't afford to wait around.

I actually recall a thread that talks about the relevance of average stack... I think it's somewhere in the archive, lemme find it. Very nice post FTP!

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 8, 2010

cjatud2012 said:
You can look at this from the other end too. If, for example, you are in first of a turbo tournament, you might be way ahead of the average stack, but your M might still be around 10, so you can't afford to wait around.

I actually recall a thread that talks about the relevance of average stack... I think it's somewhere in the archive, lemme find it. Very nice post FTP!

Thank you

and agreed you can look at this from the other point of view when talking about "Turbo" Poker

Turbo Poker and M is something ive been thinking about for a while.

But if you are in first place in a Turbo MTT and ur "M" is ~10, you still have the whole field covered right

Therefor, even with your M being relatively low, i feel that you can act as if your M is say ~15 in a standard tournament, reason beinfg, if your "M" is ~10 and your in first place, average "M" is going to be like 4-6, which means there is alot more pressure, on the average (so majority) of the field, leaving you with the oppurtunity to wait for hands, and then apply the pressure onto the average stack, who with low "M"s will be calling light

"M" and turbo poker is quite an interesting thought actually, im glad you brought it up

And thanks for the kind words sir

swingro · Mar 9, 2010

PattyR said:
is a "M" of 20 really perfect?...i start to get a little nervous when it gets around 20?...and i thought and "M" of 10 or less was shove or fold...i didn know there was difference between 2-6 and 7-10...just some thoughts

If M is 20 when the stacks and blinds are high you can play solid poker when u have a good hand. u can raise the pot after the flop if u already raised 4 bets preflop, or u can reraise after the flop if u hit your hand or if u bluff. Or simply u can still the blinds. Nobody of that moment have more than 100 BB and he cannot just simply challenge u just cose he is the high stack .

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 9, 2010

swingro said:
If M is 20 when the stacks and blinds are high you can play solid poker when u have a good hand. u can raise the pot after the flop if u already raised 4 bets preflop, or u can reraise after the flop if u hit your hand or if u bluff. Or simply u can still the blinds. Nobody of that moment have more than 100 BB and he cannot just simply challenge u just cose he is the high stack .

Not sure what your saying here

But Patty, as i explained in my first reply

when your "M" is 20, you are extremely comfortable, like i said try not to worry about average stacks and big stacks and so on.

Your stack at 20 "M" can easily afford to make standard raises, there is no need to rush into bad hands to gain chips. You can afford to make 3 bets you can afford to fold to 3-bets and 4-bets and still have plenty over to continue a standard game. Obviously, the higher your "M" the more comfortable you are, but even when your at 20 it leaves you comfortable enough.

I hope this helps you Patty, and anyone else that stumbles accross this thread.

If anyone has any questions feel free to post them

Gl at the tables

FTP

wetyeti · Mar 9, 2010

Its this info that has made me a better player when I am one the SS, i.e. 6-11 M. I get a lot of shit for playing the all-in or fold game at the local tourney. The other night I was playing and my set of tens lost to a straight. I was left with 3 bb after the hand. I was the short stack all night, never getting more that an M of 6 but continued to pick my spots and ended up making it HU with a decent stack. The chip leader asked if I wanted to chop and when I asked him why he said he didnt want to play heads up with a maniac. I took the chop.
I tend to play solid TAG but after that night I have this crazy aggro image. This can only be because of my awareness of my M status. A lot of the guys there let there stackes dwindle to 2 or 3 M and then bitch when their all-in gets called by QJ.
Maybe you can elaborate on Fold equity?
Thanks

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 9, 2010

wetyeti said:
Its this info that has made me a better player when I am one the SS, i.e. 6-11 M. I get a lot of shit for playing the all-in or fold game at the local tourney. The other night I was playing and my set of tens lost to a straight. I was left with 3 bb after the hand. I was the short stack all night, never getting more that an M of 6 but continued to pick my spots and ended up making it HU with a decent stack. The chip leader asked if I wanted to chop and when I asked him why he said he didnt want to play heads up with a maniac. I took the chop.
I tend to play solid TAG but after that night I have this crazy aggro image. This can only be because of my awareness of my M status. A lot of the guys there let there stackes dwindle to 2 or 3 M and then bitch when their all-in gets called by QJ.
Maybe you can elaborate on Fold Equity?
Thanks

Im so glad my post has helped someone so much, even if its only one person, im happy, and im grateful for your comments.

About fold equity, im no maths genius, and its a very hard thing to work out on the spot, it helps greatly, and this is obviously only with online poker, if you purchase a HUD, like pokertracker, or holdem manager, that do equity calculations for you.

However i an tell you, that fold equity, becomes very important when short stacked mostly in NLHE and Tournament poker. So, relating that to "M", whn you fall below about 6, once you get to this level it is iportant to start considering fold equity.

Yeti, how much online poker do you play? where do you play? and do you have PT3 or Holdem Manager...if you dont mind me asking.

Thanks again for your comments.

FTP

Edit: BTW, this is the equation for working out fold equity

Fold Equity = likelihood that opponent will folds *(x) gain in equity if opponent or opponents fold

as you can see it helps to have a HUD because you need to use previous reads in the first part of the equation.

Olddog21 · Mar 9, 2010

very informative...welcome back to this section!

wetyeti · Mar 9, 2010

I play on bodog and stars. I have been having trouble installing PT3 for a few weeks now. Looking forward to getting it figured out. I play between 15 and 30 hours a week. About 2/3s of that online. I like to play and have begun taking it more seriously about a year ago.
Thanks

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 9, 2010

wetyeti said:
I play on bodog and stars. I have been having trouble installing PT3 for a few weeks now. Looking forward to getting it figured out. I play between 15 and 30 hours a week. About 2/3s of that online. I like to play and have begun taking it more seriously about a year ago.
Thanks

Ok, good start getting PT3 that will help you alot when you want to work out your equity, and so on, i wish you luck at the tables, live and online.

FTP

kidkvno1 · Mar 9, 2010

PattyR said:
is a "M" of 20 really perfect?...i start to get a little nervous when it gets around 20?...and i thought and "M" of 10 or less was shove or fold...i didn know there was difference between 2-6 and 7-10...just some thoughts

A perfect M is about 30, when you get to an M of 10 it's to late, just about everyone will call you..
20 to 30 is good but i would start shoving at an M of 15.

wetyeti · Mar 9, 2010

Kdkvno
What range do you start shoving with at M 15?

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 9, 2010

kidkvno1 said:
A perfect M is about 30, when you get to an M of 10 it's to late, just about everyone will call you..
20 to 30 is good but i would start shoving at an M of 15.

No offense sir but this is completely wrong

Shoving at an M of 15? Thats ridiculous

M of 10 isnt even shove fold

You think that at 100/200 Blinds with 25 antes that a 6500 stack is all in or fold.

Your completely wrong.

Also your saying "M" of 20 isnt enough, at 100/200 antes 25, a 10000 stack ("M" of ~20) is a completely comfortable situation to be in.

Also "M" of 20 is perfect, you can feel 100% comfortable when your M is at 20, obviously you would be happier if your "M" was at 30, but you are still completely comfortable to do as you please, when your "M" is at 20.

Please stick to the strat in the OP not Kids post

GL at the felts

FTP

wetyeti · Mar 9, 2010

I didnt think it made any sense. But it'd be sweet to see that his range is 77+!

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 9, 2010

wetyeti said:
I didnt think it made any sense. But it'd be sweet to see that his range is 77+!

Im sure hes not that dumb and is thinking of something else (or so i hope)

Stick to the OP Yeti, you have said its already worked for you so why change

Gl at the tables

Poof · Mar 9, 2010

FTP, I gotta say it is great seeing a thread like this started by you. It is very informative and I think spot on. I am not a tourney player but do play the CC events which has made me learn "M" and tried tourney which is not for me, and I will say, I do not start to stress till I hit 10, I am comfortable but know I need to start picking spots, and if it hits lower shove or fold.
Thank you
I am sure ppl will say if I am not a tourney player what do I know, I have had help and coaching with them and understand the basics, my problem is just not being aggressive and stealing when I should mid to late.
I play my cards and cannot break that habit, but I think that comes from ring.

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 9, 2010

PooffyFooffy said:
FTP, I gotta say it is great seeing a thread like this started by you. It is very informative and I think spot on. I am not a tourney player but do play the CC events which has made me learn "M" and I will say, I do not start to stress till I hit 10, I am comfortable but know I need to start picking spots, and if it hits lower shove or fold.
Thank you

Thank You Pooffy, im glad you like it, and i hope it can help you in your game

Gl at the felts

FTP

kidkvno1 · Mar 10, 2010

FTP_TheNuts said:
No offense sir but this is completely wrong

Shoving at an M of 15? Thats ridiculous

M of 10 isnt even shove fold

You think that at 100/200 Blinds with 25 antes that a 6500 stack is all in or fold.

Your completely wrong.

Also your saying "M" of 20 isnt enough, at 100/200 antes 25, a 10000 stack ("M" of ~20) is a completely comfortable situation to be in.

Also "M" of 20 is perfect, you can feel 100% comfortable when your M is at 20, obviously you would be happier if your "M" was at 30, but you are still completely comfortable to do as you please, when your "M" is at 20.

Please stick to the strat in the OP not Kids post

GL at the felts

FTP

I've shoved with an M of 15 before, i did it with a LAG at the table, it was the only way to get him to fold.

I do like your thread, it will work if you have a lot of SS at the table, but if you got one LS he can put you all-in every hand, that becomes a problem, if you get what i mean. I have been in that spot a-lot of times.
What would you do in that spot, rethink your M level or stay the same??
Your thoughts on this.

I am 100% comfortable with an M of 20, but my freak-out point is an M of 10.

From a Thread...
[link broken~tb]

FTP_TheNuts · Mar 10, 2010

kidkvno1 said:
I've shoved with an M of 15 before, i did it with a LAG at the table, it was the only way to get him to fold.

I do like your thread, it will work if you have a lot of SS at the table, but if you got one LS he can put you all-in every hand, that becomes a problem, if you get what i mean. I have been in that spot a-lot of times.
What would you do in that spot, rethink your M level or stay the same??
Your thoughts on this.

I am 100% comfortable with an M of 20, but my freak-out point is an M of 10.

FWIW, that links proves my point more than yours, if you read through that properly you will see that that doesnt even tell youto revert to AI or fold until your M is 1-5, which is what i have stated in my OP.

My Strat has nothing to do with SS play, it is present in all areas of a tournament.

In no way is there any need to shove an "M" of 15, it is way too high.

You say you start to feel uncomfortable at "M" of 10. That is standard aswell, and thats basically what is coming accross in the OP. You should start to feel uncomfortable with your stack, yet you should still preserve your chips because you still have just enough time to pick your spots well.

I did read your post and thought about it alot, and i spoke to others about your post, and it was the majority opinion that "M" of 15 is too high to be shove folding. Also that most people start to feel uncomfortable at "M" of 10.

All these reasons are exactly why i posted this. To help people feeling uncomfortable in these positions. And hopefully improve their game by interpreting M.

Kid, you seem to be referring to "M" when calling an all in. When someone has pushed all in onto you (like the loose big stck you are referring to in your post) M no longer applies, because if they hae you covered, it then simply comes down to your reads, and whether you think your getting it in good or not, we are more talking equity than "M" when considering calling an all in. "M" only applies when your thinking about making your move.

Considering Dan Harrington was the person to bring "M" famously into the game of Poker, it is more likely that this is correct imho. I have used this for a good year now, and its significantly improved my game, and i feel it can significantly inproe others games, such as it already has with WetYeti.

Gl at the tables

FTP

Snowmobiler · Mar 10, 2010

If you wait for an M of 1-5 before shoving,you have no fold equity

Snow

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