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dturner100
Rock Star
Silver Level
I really have never understood why we label a poor poker player as a donkey.
If we are not a donkey our self than the person to your left would be more of a "cash cow". No?
I've never called somebody a donkey. Even on a sever bad beat. With good play we know where the chips will end up and why educate them.
Sorry, that was so off topic and probably didn't help...
If we are not a donkey our self than the person to your left would be more of a "cash cow". No?
I've never called somebody a donkey. Even on a sever bad beat. With good play we know where the chips will end up and why educate them.
Sorry, that was so off topic and probably didn't help...
ribaric
Visionary
Silver Level
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Foldemz
Rock Star
Silver Level
So much nonsense in this thread. It's painful to read.
Your position at the table is extremely important. When we play hands we'd like to have position on our opponents, but this doesn't always happen.
If you're in a hand with the person on your left he will always have position on you unless you're the button. Since this is the case we would generally want a bad player on our left. Not someone who can utilize the advantage of position.
If you want to know more I'm sure you can do a quick google search on the importance of position.
Your position at the table is extremely important. When we play hands we'd like to have position on our opponents, but this doesn't always happen.
If you're in a hand with the person on your left he will always have position on you unless you're the button. Since this is the case we would generally want a bad player on our left. Not someone who can utilize the advantage of position.
If you want to know more I'm sure you can do a quick google search on the importance of position.
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DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
You're better off playing against bad players instead of good ones regardless of seat. If there's only one fish at the table however, you're better off with that player on your immediate right instead of left, and it's something to bear in mind when selecting a seat. I want to make sure that's clear in case you or (more likely) the people reading your post didn't understand that.
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baklagan
Enthusiast
Silver Level
It's better to have fish players on the right then on the left. You don't need to bluff against them and you may never be sure what they have because they may call you with everything. But you need to play with him when you have cards better then average and don't even try to bluff against them, they may call you with anything...
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Foldemz
Rock Star
Silver Level
My point was that if someone is going to have position on you 90% of the time it's better for it to be a donkey rather than a competent player or a pro.
Having a fish on your right might be a good way to extract value, but having any pro on your right is a good way to minimize losses.
A fish is still fishy when they sit on your left. You can still extract plenty of value out of donks if you end up in the hand with them oop, as they don't understand how to utilize position properly.
Additionally, your reasoning for wanting a worse player than you on your right should leave you with the realization that someone better than you would want YOU on THEIR right. This will then make you realize it isn't optimal to have any type of competent player directly on your left. So I'd be fine with the person on my left being a donkey. Although I'd prefer them all to be donkeys.
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DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
If you'll notice, I didn't actually give any reasoning in my initial post. This is because the concept is so well known and at least 10 years old now, and there's not much point explaining things that are so commonly understood unless someone goes out of their way to demonstrate that they don't (as you have just now). It's like explaining that you should open a tighter range from UTG than from the CO or BTN. It's not "my" reasoning you're challenging, it's every half way decent online player to play the game, and it only took until the 2nd reply in this topic for the jesus seat to come up. Heck, gaining direct position on the table mark is so important that people write scripts to auto seat them for this exact purpose.
Anyway yes, if you're also a fish then a good player is going to want you on their right, giving him position on ~both~ soft spots in the game. You'd have to be pretty bad however not to want to stay exactly where you are, since you're better off sitting against 4 people who have an edge on you in ability and a fish to your immediate right than against 5 people who are pretty much equally skilled as yourself. By making this into a math problem of sorts and assigning a constant (presume you win 2× on average for instance from someone on your right than you would if that same player was instead on your immediate left... but it doesn't matter what value you choose) to quantify the effect of position on one's winrate, you can prove it outright.
If you want to know more I'm sure you can do a quick google search on the importance of position. Position is like oxygen. You don't need to understand why it helps you for it to help you, so intentionally playing out of position against the player you expect to win most of your profit from and hoping that it isn't going to matter is flawed thinking.
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Foldemz
Rock Star
Silver Level
I wasn't speaking about you specifically, I was just saying usually you (again, not you, but people in general) would want bad players on their right to have position on them to extract max value. Obviously. But, at the same time you don't want someone more skilled than you having position on you 9 out of 10 hands either. So it'd be best to have the person directly to your left be a bad player. Donkey to your left? No reason to be upset about it. If you get in the hand with him oop, you'll probably come out okay anyways. Now if there is a pro directly to your left, then that's a problem for you. That's all I was trying to say.
I agree with this.
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Foldemz
Rock Star
Silver Level
A little more time today to write this up.
This is a scenario in which 9 players are seated.
1 Pro, 1 Hero, and 7 Donkeys.
This is a pretty good game to be in.
Seating arrangements:
DDHDDDDPD
Optimal
DDDHPDDDD
Also Optimal - You have position on the only good player. And the rest are donkeys!
DDDPHDDDD
Worst Possible Seat out of the 3- solely because the only good player has position on you 8 out of 9 times.
(although it isn't necessarily unprofitable)
However, for the DDDHPDDDD arrangement any time the Pro decides to play (aside from when he's the button), you will have position on him making it much easier to take advantage of certain plays.
Well I never said that you would be intentionally playing fish out of position. A fish on your left is fine though. I simply stated that if you end up in a hand with them, you'll still likely be okay. What isn't fine is a solid winning player or a pro on your left.
My whole point is that having a bad player directly to your left is ideal as opposed to the only good player at the table if there is one. Having position is a 2 way street. One other person will have position on you most of the time (immediate left) and hopefully he's not good. Likewise, In the event there is a good player on your immediate right then that's fine, atleast you will have position on him, and you can not only minimize your losses but also take advantage of plays that are available to you in position.
Also Fish are fish... it doesn't matter where they are sitting, they will be in hands they shouldn't be in and try to play you out of position. Most solid poker seating strategies consist of not only having an aggressive loose idiot to your right, but making sure you sit where you have position on good players giving you the advantage. Not sitting where the fish are and ignorantly ignoring that you are putting yourself at risk by giving positional advantages to good players.
Here are 3 sources for you:
https://www.partypoker.com/how-to-play/school/advanced/the-right-seat.html
"Which position? Money generally moves clockwise around the table, so once you’ve spotted where the best players are, sit to their left (if you can)"
http://www.poker1.com/archives/7579/choosing-the-winning-poker-seat
"Okay, so loose players and aggressive WINNERS go on your right." -nits go left.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/where-sit-relative-player-types-155350/
"Pure fish (35/2/whatever) are welcome everywhere on my tables, because they're clueless. Value betting these guys, since they don't know how to value hands or read hands properly, is generally very profitable."
As far as the jesus seat goes... this really implys that you have a maniac donkey to your right, and have NITS to your left. Definitely no really good players to your immediate left. Its like the perfect seat. You have the aggression leverage over the fish who call all around the table, and have some maniac betting into you when you can hold the nuts. But at the same time if the table has good players, you'd want the best players on your right for that positional advantage not the other way around. Why give them that extra advantage against you? If a fish has that advantage against you it'll hardly be utilized.
Like I said, position is a 2 way street. We can't just ignore who we are inadvertently giving position to when we pick seats that we think will net us profits.
This is a scenario in which 9 players are seated.
1 Pro, 1 Hero, and 7 Donkeys.
This is a pretty good game to be in.
Seating arrangements:
DDHDDDDPD
Optimal
DDDHPDDDD
Also Optimal - You have position on the only good player. And the rest are donkeys!
DDDPHDDDD
Worst Possible Seat out of the 3- solely because the only good player has position on you 8 out of 9 times.
(although it isn't necessarily unprofitable)
However, for the DDDHPDDDD arrangement any time the Pro decides to play (aside from when he's the button), you will have position on him making it much easier to take advantage of certain plays.
Well I never said that you would be intentionally playing fish out of position. A fish on your left is fine though. I simply stated that if you end up in a hand with them, you'll still likely be okay. What isn't fine is a solid winning player or a pro on your left.
My whole point is that having a bad player directly to your left is ideal as opposed to the only good player at the table if there is one. Having position is a 2 way street. One other person will have position on you most of the time (immediate left) and hopefully he's not good. Likewise, In the event there is a good player on your immediate right then that's fine, atleast you will have position on him, and you can not only minimize your losses but also take advantage of plays that are available to you in position.
Also Fish are fish... it doesn't matter where they are sitting, they will be in hands they shouldn't be in and try to play you out of position. Most solid poker seating strategies consist of not only having an aggressive loose idiot to your right, but making sure you sit where you have position on good players giving you the advantage. Not sitting where the fish are and ignorantly ignoring that you are putting yourself at risk by giving positional advantages to good players.
Here are 3 sources for you:
https://www.partypoker.com/how-to-play/school/advanced/the-right-seat.html
"Which position? Money generally moves clockwise around the table, so once you’ve spotted where the best players are, sit to their left (if you can)"
http://www.poker1.com/archives/7579/choosing-the-winning-poker-seat
"Okay, so loose players and aggressive WINNERS go on your right." -nits go left.
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/where-sit-relative-player-types-155350/
"Pure fish (35/2/whatever) are welcome everywhere on my tables, because they're clueless. Value betting these guys, since they don't know how to value hands or read hands properly, is generally very profitable."
As far as the jesus seat goes... this really implys that you have a maniac donkey to your right, and have NITS to your left. Definitely no really good players to your immediate left. Its like the perfect seat. You have the aggression leverage over the fish who call all around the table, and have some maniac betting into you when you can hold the nuts. But at the same time if the table has good players, you'd want the best players on your right for that positional advantage not the other way around. Why give them that extra advantage against you? If a fish has that advantage against you it'll hardly be utilized.
Like I said, position is a 2 way street. We can't just ignore who we are inadvertently giving position to when we pick seats that we think will net us profits.
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DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
I don't quite have the time at the moment that you did when you posted that but I do want to reply and correct a couple things.
Sitting at a table with 7 fish is indeed a pretty good game to be in, yes. Being at a table with one or two fish at the most is a much less rare and unrealistic scenario to find yourself in however (unless you are playing well below your limit), and I prefaced my original post by saying "if there's only one fish at the table" even though no one to that point said anything to imply playing multiple fish at the same time.. just to be as clear as possible. I replied because you said we "generally want a bad player on our left" lol, not because btw there are also 6 other players who are just as bad at this table we're sitting at but because having direct position on you isn't of much advantage to them. I take issue with both the statement and the justification. Don't think of it as they'll be utilizing the (numerous) advantages of position against you so much as you're now unable to utilize the advantages of position against them - not the least of which is that you could actually know if they intend to play their hand or not before deciding what to do with yours. This player is supposed to be the reason you're at the table.
This could not be more wrong. Your relative position to these players absolutely matters, for reasons that should be rather apparent.
No any fish is fine actually, including passive ones. The players to your left (nits work well, donkeys as you said before are even better, etc) are of lesser consequence than the player you've targeted - the player who's often the very reason the game is running. You're going to understand enough about poker not to donk off nearly as much money to the people on your left as you are able to extract from the idiot you have direct position on. After all you said it yourself that he's not going to understand position the way you hopefully should. Anyway I'm out of time now so I can't click or read through those links you've dug up, but I certainly intend to today or tomorrow and if you'd like I can return the favour by offering up about 25 or 30 of my own.
Sitting at a table with 7 fish is indeed a pretty good game to be in, yes. Being at a table with one or two fish at the most is a much less rare and unrealistic scenario to find yourself in however (unless you are playing well below your limit), and I prefaced my original post by saying "if there's only one fish at the table" even though no one to that point said anything to imply playing multiple fish at the same time.. just to be as clear as possible. I replied because you said we "generally want a bad player on our left" lol, not because btw there are also 6 other players who are just as bad at this table we're sitting at but because having direct position on you isn't of much advantage to them. I take issue with both the statement and the justification. Don't think of it as they'll be utilizing the (numerous) advantages of position against you so much as you're now unable to utilize the advantages of position against them - not the least of which is that you could actually know if they intend to play their hand or not before deciding what to do with yours. This player is supposed to be the reason you're at the table.
This could not be more wrong. Your relative position to these players absolutely matters, for reasons that should be rather apparent.
No any fish is fine actually, including passive ones. The players to your left (nits work well, donkeys as you said before are even better, etc) are of lesser consequence than the player you've targeted - the player who's often the very reason the game is running. You're going to understand enough about poker not to donk off nearly as much money to the people on your left as you are able to extract from the idiot you have direct position on. After all you said it yourself that he's not going to understand position the way you hopefully should. Anyway I'm out of time now so I can't click or read through those links you've dug up, but I certainly intend to today or tomorrow and if you'd like I can return the favour by offering up about 25 or 30 of my own.
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Foldemz
Rock Star
Silver Level
No lol.
You mentioned the jesus seat originally so I really want to clear up your misconception of it. The jesus seat is a perfect seat. Not just every seat where you have a couple fish on your right. The perfect seat would have the absolute nittiest of nits on your left, an aggressive donkey on your right, and a couple fish spread around the table.
You act like you won't end up in a hand with each fish at the table unless they are sitting directly to your right. Which is ridiculous. They are fish because they play tons of hands OOP and they often find themselves in over their head. They aren't fish just because of their relative position to you.
But like I said you were right about if there's only 1 fish at the table and everyone else is equal to you then you'd for sure want that player on your right. But this is hardly ever the case. And even if it was it wouldn't be a very profitable game at all, how could it be?
So I'll just leave you with one final thought:
Basically all I've been trying to tell you is that it's of vital importance to make sure the guy to your left isn't a friggin shark, as he has position on you most often. This concept is just as important as having the value rich opponents on your right. That's it. Really really basic stuff. If he ends up on my right instead of left, well then good. I have position on a good player for nearly every hand.
Also, I'm getting the impression that you legitimately think you'll never find yourself in a hand with anyone other than the guys on your immediate right. That's not how poker works. Poker isn't just - "let's sit next to these guys, and they'll be the only ones we ever end up playing! The rest of the table doesn't matter!!". There's more to it than that.
Don't even bother. Stick to Zynga.
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DunningKruger
Legend
Silver Level
Tilt much? This looks like it's getting fun now. But okay, I'll indulge you.
Really. Just a couple eh. 4 or 5 is too many I take it. And we need nits on the left too for the perfect seat? After you went through a lot of effort to try and explain to us that we want the fish on the left instead? I'm not saying that the nittiest of nits can't also be a fish if they play poorly enough but heck in the very post I'm replying to you're telling me that "they are fish because they play tons of hands". Your desire to argue about this is starting to prevent you from keeping your story straight. Get that sorted please. Thanks though for trying to explain for me what the jesus seat means. Pretty cute coming from a guy that didn't understand the term just yesterday. You can go here or here if you care to see it used in (the proper) context. Google is your friend. Embrace it.
We're bound to end up in hands with them if someone else doesn't stack them first, but of course we'd rather have position on them when we do so. We'd also rather not deal with the regs any more than we have to who'll be getting involved when the fish enters the pot - who'll not only have position on the fish but now likely us as well should we consciously decide to position the fish on our left.
No, not if you decide to sit to the right of the fish as you're advocating. They'll still be playing tons of hands but now they'll be playing in position instead of out of position - at least as far as you're concerned. Had you picked a better seat, then sure, they'd be liable to play tons of hands OOP. You said it yourself in one of your posts that money generally moves clockwise around the table. Clearly then we're going to want to sit clockwise of the person giving away the most money ldo.
Thanks, I'll be sure to do that. In return for that tip I'll offer one of my own. if you're going to spout one of the dumbest, most ass backwards comments posted in recent memory, don't be pretentious about it (to the point of saying the nonsense in this thread is painful to read and actually changing the font colour on it as well!) unless you're either a troll account or being intentionally ironic. Cheers.
Edit: Had to get an edit in just to say how asinine this conversation is becoming. I mean you've already conceded that a good player or a "friggin shark" to your immediate left is going to cause you problems, so take the next logical step and apply this from the perspective of the fish. Again, this is pretty basic stuff.
Really. Just a couple eh. 4 or 5 is too many I take it. And we need nits on the left too for the perfect seat? After you went through a lot of effort to try and explain to us that we want the fish on the left instead? I'm not saying that the nittiest of nits can't also be a fish if they play poorly enough but heck in the very post I'm replying to you're telling me that "they are fish because they play tons of hands". Your desire to argue about this is starting to prevent you from keeping your story straight. Get that sorted please. Thanks though for trying to explain for me what the jesus seat means. Pretty cute coming from a guy that didn't understand the term just yesterday. You can go here or here if you care to see it used in (the proper) context. Google is your friend. Embrace it.
We're bound to end up in hands with them if someone else doesn't stack them first, but of course we'd rather have position on them when we do so. We'd also rather not deal with the regs any more than we have to who'll be getting involved when the fish enters the pot - who'll not only have position on the fish but now likely us as well should we consciously decide to position the fish on our left.
No, not if you decide to sit to the right of the fish as you're advocating. They'll still be playing tons of hands but now they'll be playing in position instead of out of position - at least as far as you're concerned. Had you picked a better seat, then sure, they'd be liable to play tons of hands OOP. You said it yourself in one of your posts that money generally moves clockwise around the table. Clearly then we're going to want to sit clockwise of the person giving away the most money ldo.
Thanks, I'll be sure to do that. In return for that tip I'll offer one of my own. if you're going to spout one of the dumbest, most ass backwards comments posted in recent memory, don't be pretentious about it (to the point of saying the nonsense in this thread is painful to read and actually changing the font colour on it as well!) unless you're either a troll account or being intentionally ironic. Cheers.
Edit: Had to get an edit in just to say how asinine this conversation is becoming. I mean you've already conceded that a good player or a "friggin shark" to your immediate left is going to cause you problems, so take the next logical step and apply this from the perspective of the fish. Again, this is pretty basic stuff.
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Lucothefish
Visionary
Silver Level
Jibbers crabst what happened to this thread
Anyways foldemz is right, if there's any regs at the table who understand how to play in position it's vital that you don't end up on their right and this should take precedence over your relative position to the ><((( ' > who will give up their chips anywhere, anyhow.
Anyways foldemz is right, if there's any regs at the table who understand how to play in position it's vital that you don't end up on their right and this should take precedence over your relative position to the ><((( ' > who will give up their chips anywhere, anyhow.
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Foldemz
Rock Star
Silver Level
Again...Nits are ideal, fish or donkeys are fine though. What isn't fine are any of the good players that may be at the table: ie sharks, pros, regs, and competent players. Which is what I've been saying the entire time....
You can't just ignore who you are giving positional advantages to.
That was a direct quote from partypoker.com and it was recommending that you should sit to the left of the best player at the table. So if you have the absolute best player on your left the money will continue to flow that way(including yours). No reason to give yourself that disadvantage.
EDIT: Actually, let's just agree to disagree:
-You think fish need to be on your direct right at all times regardless of your surroundings for profit.
-And I think it's of equal or even greater importance to make sure no solid players are to my direct left.
Arguing back and forth really helps no one.
So good luck to you and see you at the tables.
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