DO you call all in with middle pair, OESD?

What do you guys think, we're in the BB, heads up in a min raised pot by villain in CO, we have [Jd][Td], flop comes down [9d][Jh][Qs], villain c-bets pot size. We:
a) call
b) raise
c) fold

This is a situation i often find myself in, so would like some points of view. Give reasons for your answer and say if your decision changes based on cash game/ tournament. Assume equal 100BB stacks in each situation.

Depends how the hand was played pre-flop, flop, what the pot size is, what the pot odds are, who the villain is, and if it's tournament, what the payout is, what place you're currently in, etc.

Bottomline: Not enough information.

if you read, i've included most of this info

pokerlovesme said:

Depends how the hand was played pre-flop, flop, what the pot size is, what the pot odds are, who the villain is, and if it's tournament, what the payout is, what place you're currently in, etc.

Bottomline: Not enough information.

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This is a general situation. Adding more info would only work to polarize the situation, and by changing small details of said more info would change the answers entirely.

Having said that, in general terms, I would raise. A pot sized c-bet, to me, screams "I don't want action, I just want to scare you into folding." A raise will give you a lead on a pot you may already have the best hand in, or will at least work to slow down the c-bettor and give you a chance to take the pot on the turn without the best hand, or make your draw on the turn and have that added value already in the pot.

Generally speaking, of course.

TheKAAHK said:

This is a general situation. Adding more info would only work to polarize the situation, and by changing small details of said more info would change the answers entirely.

Having said that, in general terms, I would raise. A pot sized c-bet, to me, screams "I don't want action, I just want to scare you into folding." A raise will give you a lead on a pot you may already have the best hand in, or will at least work to slow down the c-bettor and give you a chance to take the pot on the turn without the best hand, or make your draw on the turn and have that added value already in the pot.

Generally speaking, of course.

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EXACTLY my thoughts.

FIrstly I would like to know, his image, our image, how he perceives us to be and whether or not it is cash game. Just way too general to really produce good answers.

ben_rhyno said:

What do you guys think, we're in the BB, heads up in a min raised pot by villain in CO, we have J♦[Td], flop comes down 9♦J♥Q♠, villain c-bets pot size. We:
a) call
b) raise
c) fold

This is a situation i often find myself in, so would like some points of view. Give reasons for your answer and say if your decision changes based on cash game/ tournament. Assume equal 100BB stacks in each situation.

Click to expand...

OK, how is you are calling? You act first. You didn't bet out? Either you are planning on the check-raise or you should be folding because you are playing too weak for words. A pot bet after a min raise preflop is not that big...

I like betting out in this situation. Usually 3/4 - full pot. You hit the flop pretty hard. It will quickly become a fairly easy decision if he reraises huge.

Hypothetically, we check to villain, who c-bets pot size. But you would lead out, what happens if he shoves?

marginal said:

FIrstly I would like to know, his image, our image, how he perceives us to be and whether or not it is cash game. Just way too general to really produce good answers.

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I agree with this. The texture of the table is also important. Probably tho I'd just fold jt preflop to a raise most of the time on the bb. Oop with marginal hands is a good way to lose blinds imdo.

I don't see JTs as being a marginal hand when playing heads up.

ben_rhyno said:

Hypothetically, we check to villain, who c-bets pot size. But you would lead out, what happens if he shoves?

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As I suggested, checking to the villain is not necessarily the optimum play. That's only my opinion. If you check to him, you should be planning on the check raise. A pot sized bet from him may mean he has something or mean he is responding to your check. Depends on his aggression factor. The implied odds are there to call. But a reraise tells you where you are.

If you bet first, with a pot sized raise and he shoves... easy fold 90% of the time. (His image/your image, etc.) Unless you feel lucky.

That's for a cash game. In a tourney, if, as you say, you both have 100BB, same answer. Except I'm definitely not calling his shove in a tourney. (OK, some of you have played with me and doubt this. But this analysis doesn't take tilt into account. )

What could he have? Most people don't min bet JJ+ or AK/AQ. Hell, most people don't min bet. Is that the table norm? Is this guy a mouse? Is he a LAG? What's his history? And in the CO, chances are his range is not quite as wide as a button range. He is somewhat unlikely to have KT, but it's possible. He could have AT. (If so, you will get slaughtered if the K shows up) Or he could have a smaller PP, say 88, hoping to get you out of there, hoping for a 10. The thing is, you could be ahead already. Or already in deep trouble. My vote is for finding out which.

Thanks for your analysis Doops, some very interesting points in there. Are we even that far behind JJ?QQ? a nyone do a pokerstove on it for me?

Not taking any other factors into consideration, you are 72.25/26.53 against QQ, and 72.07/26.57 against JJ.

And about that min-raise.... could be aces, in which case you are 47.07/52.32 against. Almost even money. Doubtful though. Any 50%+ hand could be in a min-raise range heads-up....

Just noticed I missed an important word in my previous post. It was meant to read that you are behind, not ahead 70%.

So you will need odds of roughly 3/1 to continue this hand?

ben_rhyno said:

What do you guys think, we're in the BB, heads up in a min raised pot by villain in CO, we have J♦[Td], flop comes down 9♦J♥Q♠, villain c-bets pot size. We:
a) call
b) raise
c) fold

This is a situation i often find myself in, so would like some points of view. Give reasons for your answer and say if your decision changes based on cash game/ tournament. Assume equal 100BB stacks in each situation.

Click to expand...

In the situation you give here i suggest a raise just to see where you are in the hand. you obvisously acted first checking to the CO. If you are checking here it should be with the intention of raising.

However your original question posed in the title says if your oppenent goes all in do you call with mp and oesd. I think thats also a call. Looking at the board there is little opportunity for a flush and only a few hands have you completely dominated. So i think calling all-in isn't a bad play in that situation.

My 2 cents

i would never call from the bb with j10 hu. 3bet/fold pf.