Discussion I had during an MTT

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doomasiggy

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People were talking about bad beats that they'd had in MTT's and I described a situation where someone shoved with :4c4: :5c4: and I called with :ah4: :kh4: and he hit a 5 on the turn, and I ended up having this conversation:

bb: sounds like you got smoked. You should never get into a situation where a pair of fives can beat you.
me: eh? he shoved for like a third of my stack and I called with AKs. Against most of the pairs in his range it's a coin flip, I'm only behind to KK and AA.
bb: yeah but you're drawing dead against AA.
me: ...sorry, what? AKs is one of the best preflop hands in the game. I've got equity against pretty much every hand in the deck. You're telling me you wouldn't call a shove if you were holding AK suited? When you're flipping against pretty much every pair in the deck?
bb: Of course not you coin flipping fool.
Click to expand...

Am I right here? If you're holding AKs and one person shoves its not fishy to call there right?
 
duggs

duggs

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nope perfectly fine to call, you forgot the times he is shoving weaker Aces on weaker kings, which tend to be more likely than small pairs, i wouldnt consider it a bad beat tho. considering how wide he is shoving tho you should instantly be calling (and calling wider aswell)
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

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LOL at bb's analysis. He makes it sound like you were coinflipping against 45s.

In an MTT there are a number of spots where coinflipping for your entire stack is probably not advisable. That said, in most cases calling off only 1/3 of your stack with AKs would rarely be a bad play.

Definitely not a bad beat though.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Your only mistake was talking about strategy with idiots while playing.
 
MediaBLITZ

MediaBLITZ

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Really? It's that easy for a guy at the table to get into your head?
If his play did not match his lunacy he was F'***ing with you.
 
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fugitive67

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MediaBLITZ said:
Really? It's that easy for a guy at the table to get into your head?
If his play did not match his lunacy he was F'***ing with you.
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yeah exactly, if he is going out of his way to comment on such a straight forward play, then he is messing with you ... maybe he is trying to make you think he is a fish or just plain distract you ... i dont chat much in tourneys ... cash i will sometimes if im running good and then it's usually the wow sorry guys, just carding really well today ... ha, like anyone is buying into that ... but you don't want them to get up and leave ;)
 
Arjonius

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After several years of online poker, I can say with full assurance that the amount I've learned about strategy from the chatter that goes on during tournaments is pretty close to zero. The main place to learn and to improve your understanding of strategy elements is away from the table. At the table is where you implement, practice and improve your use of them.
 
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baudib1

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It's honestly very rare when you should turn down a coinflip in a tournament even for your whole stack.

Incidentally, it's very rare that AK does not have someone's range crushed, so it's not a coinflip.
 
Arjonius

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baudib1 said:
It's honestly very rare when you should turn down a coinflip in a tournament even for your whole stack.
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I disagree. While there are plenty of situations where one should welcome the chance to race, there are also many where it's preferable not to be so keen. Flipping for your entire stack or enough to leave you crippled if you lose is not the same as when you would still have a fully playable stack left.

Playing so that you depend on the fall of the cards is akin to the Kill Phil type of strategy, which is for situations where you're at a skill disadvantage.

In the specific situation in question, barring some highly unusual circumstances, I'd call off a third of my stack with AKs in a flash.
 
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baudib1

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There's almost never a point in any tourney where you have better than a 50% chance to double up. If you could actually see the person's cards and know you're in a coinflip, you should take it.
 
duggs

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Arjonius said:
I disagree. While there are plenty of situations where one should welcome the chance to race, there are also many where it's preferable not to be so keen. Flipping for your entire stack or enough to leave you crippled if you lose is not the same as when you would still have a fully playable stack left.

Playing so that you depend on the fall of the cards is akin to the Kill Phil type of strategy, which is for situations where you're at a skill disadvantage.

In the specific situation in question, barring some highly unusual circumstances, I'd call off a third of my stack with AKs in a flash.
Click to expand...

If we are flipping why would we not call?
 
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luckyhearts

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It is not in your best interest to educate bad players.....I always look at it this way: had i been able to see his cards, would i have played differently?...obviously no.

only chat in forum games lol
 
MasterOfDisaster

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baudib1 said:
There's almost never a point in any tourney where you have better than a 50% chance to double up. If you could actually see the person's cards and know you're in a coinflip, you should take it.
Click to expand...

Lol. I think you are totally wrong. If you are still deepstacked and got a table full of fishes there are much better opportunities than find yourself in a flip.

This depends on so many things in tourneys.
 
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baudib1

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If by deepstacked you mean you are over 150 BBs deep with someone where the average stack is 30 BBs, then sure. Otherwise, no.

(Actually this is debatable because the times you have 300 BBs in that scenario are going to be worth a ton more than the times you fold and stick with 150).

But I'm guessing what you consider to be deepstacked to be totally different than that, in which case you would be wrong.

And actually, in the above scenario you have even less of a chance of doubling up, and your edge over fish is never going to be very big.

The chips you can win are always worth more than the chips you have.
 
KoRnholio

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Don't tap the glass. You want this guy to keep folding big aces when you're short stacked and shoving weaker hands.
 
Arjonius

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duggs said:
If we are flipping why would we not call?
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At the table, "if we are flipping" is an unproven premise. Also, even if we take this as a theoretical exercise where we know we are, I think the desirability of taking the flip can vary depending on other factors.

As an artificial example, if I'm HU against a far superior player, I'd be more willing to flip for my entire stack because my EV is BE whereas it's negative if I try to play him straight up. The opposite is also true. If the opponent is one I can grind down by winning lots of smaller pots, I'm less keen to flip for a huge pot until such time as I've gained enough of a chip advantage so losing won't cripple me.
 
duggs

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Arjonius said:
At the table, "if we are flipping" is an unproven premise. Also, even if we take this as a theoretical exercise where we know we are, I think the desirability of taking the flip can vary depending on other factors.

As an artificial example, if I'm HU against a far superior player, I'd be more willing to flip for my entire stack because my EV is BE whereas it's negative if I try to play him straight up. The opposite is also true. If the opponent is one I can grind down by winning lots of smaller pots, I'm less keen to flip for a huge pot until such time as I've gained enough of a chip advantage so losing won't cripple me.
Click to expand...

This isnt HU, in tournaments our ability to play is constrained by having a smaller stack, a double up is worth the risk.
 
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