Defending top pair or better against draws

BuzzKillington

BuzzKillington

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Total posts
438
Awards
1
Chips
1
I have recently been beaten by some very annoying straights and flushes, when I had a set or a two pair, and I thought I was clearly ahead. How do you defend against those draws? I feel that my current strategy of betting 1/2 pot on the flop when I have top pair and 2/3 or 3/4 of the pot when I have two pair or better, is not working. Note that I'm playing on the lowest possible stakes, so I have stopped paying too much attention to balancing my bet-sizings.

Some people say that you do not need to defend against draws and that you should only be considered with value-betting. I'm not sure if I agree with that. For example, if you are the aggressor, out of position and you flop top pair or better on a wet draw heavy board, then checking away the lead in order to check-raise is probably too risky, since the villain may choose to get a free card instead, which may complete their possible flush or straight draw with infinite to 1 odds (pot odds).

Another example: suppose you have a set on a wet board; you bet 2/3 the pot and the villain calls. The turn completes a possible flush or straight draw. Suddenly the villain donks into you by betting the full pot, obviously trying to represent the flush or straight. What do you do? Just fold? Probably, right? But the hardest part is when the villain doesn't donk into you. Do you just bet the turn? If so, how much? Are you still value-betting and just treating a completed flush or straight as a cold deck? And what if the villain calls? How do you play the river, assuming that you didn't improve your hand?
 
tbdbitl

tbdbitl

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Total posts
1,048
Awards
1
Chips
0
I would not say I "defend" when flopping a set or top 2. But what I try to do is offer a price that is wrong for the draws that are out there--flop and turn. But, there are some instances (vs certain opponents or multiway pots) where I don't. There are certain cases where you cannot without grossly over betting the pot. If there is a straight and flush draw on the flop the straight or flush will get there by the river 60% of the time.
 
C

CallmeFloppy

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Total posts
1,296
Awards
2
Chips
1
I think tbdbitl ( how is that pronounced ) hit it. Back to the basics with Theory of Poker by Sklansky. You want to lay a price where you are making a call incorrect. Having multiple players in the hand complicates that. Once one person calls, the pot odds improve for each player after.
 
AMTF1988

AMTF1988

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2017
Total posts
350
Chips
0
My partner taught me to play poker, and she taught me that if there's a draw on the table and you've got a hand, make a bet large enough to get them off the pot.

It also depends on the type of players you're up against, their stack sizes, and the type of tournament. If someone has you covered by a large amount there's not a lot of risk chasing a draw. Also, in my opinion, a high percentage of opponents will chase a draw in a freeroll or low buy-in tournament.
 
BuzzKillington

BuzzKillington

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 20, 2017
Total posts
438
Awards
1
Chips
1
I would not say I "defend" when flopping a set or top 2. But what I try to do is offer a price that is wrong for the draws that are out there--flop and turn.
Isn't that defending, though? The fact that you take the price of calling to hit a flush or straight into account means you are defending against it. So, how do you size your flop and turn bets? And what if the turn comes with a card completing a possible flush or straight, while you have at most a set (and possibly just top pair)?

I think tbdbitl ( how is that pronounced ) hit it. Back to the basics with Theory of Poker by Sklansky. You want to lay a price where you are making a call incorrect. Having multiple players in the hand complicates that. Once one person calls, the pot odds improve for each player after.
Okay. Then I have some interesting scenarios for you.

Suppose that you open-raised your TT hand pre-flop on the CO. You get three callers, on the BTN, the SB and the BB. The flop comes and you hit your TTT set. However, there is also a flush draw, e.g., the flop is Tc 3c Kh. The SB and the BB check to you. What do you do?

Suppose that you bet say 1/2 of the pot. You get two callers, the BTN and the SB. The turn comes: 7c. The SB checks to you. What do you do?

And what if the SB donks into you by betting 2/3 of the pot? Remember that the BTN still gets to act after you.

(I am assuming standard sized stacks here. For the sake of simplicity, assume that at the start of the hand everyone had 100BB stacks. Also assume that no HUD statistics are available.)
 
Last edited:
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Just commenting your first abnormality. You are correct that bet sizing is wrong. Air or made hand, in general, has no meaning CB sizing. Mostly you think in order of importance a) flop texture b) message you try to get through c) stack depth

Just read again and noticed your comment about bet size in lowest levels. I can't say it's wrong, but you might give me a bit too little respect.
 
Last edited:
tbdbitl

tbdbitl

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Total posts
1,048
Awards
1
Chips
0
Isn't that defending, though? The fact that you take the price of calling to hit a flush or straight into account means you are defending against it. So, how do you size your flop and turn bets? And what if the turn comes with a card completing a possible flush or straight, while you have at most a set (and possibly just top pair)?

I always look at a defense is something that stops something. This is the distinction that I am making when I say I am not necessarily defending. You cannot defend or stop it from happening. But, you can size your bets so that it is not profitable in the long run for your opponent.

My bets are many times are opponent dependant. If I had a set and the turn completes, I am many times satisfied to just check/call a bet with 10 outs to a boat. Bet sizing always seems a little easier when HU. Multiway pots can get very tricky.

When flopping top pair I better have top kicker if I am betting the Flop or Turn. Position dictates a lot. If you have position and lead out, many times an opponent may check their made hand to you on the turn. Many times this makes it easy to check back.
 
Milosika1991

Milosika1991

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 15, 2015
Total posts
355
Chips
0
When I hit a set on a flop, I usually bet now very hard, almost the whole pot, if I am paid, and on the flop there is some draw if it does not come out for villain anything on the turn, that is, if it does not hit that draw that we think it is waiting for then i pull all in... :D
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Chips
0
At the lower stake games you are just not gonna find a way to defend (as you put it) against drawing hands. Period. Shoving is as close as you'll get but you then lose a lot of value. It gets a little saner as the stakes go up, but remember this; You have no idea how important money is to your villains.

So some filthy rich guy who is looking for (in his mind) cheap entertainment, could easily have had one too many drinks, and almost has a wtf attitude. In which case your job is to make the determination of just how 'wtf' he really is. There really are a lot more of these types than I thought 5 years ago. Especially at live games. You'll find them online too, it's just harder to identify them online.

Noobs don't work out even the simplest of odds, largely because they never learned any.
They fall in love with something (most of the time suited connectors) and will charge ahead without a thought about it. You know that lots of them love playing 1 card poker (Ax, Kx) or low pairs. They expect miracles, which tend to come along just often enough to bolster their sense of self worth.

Keep in mind that at the cheapest stakes, you have the widest variety of player types. Lots of noobs, drunks, and students of the game who haven't quite figured out the game yet (let alone figured out their game), along with mini stake grinders. The grinders will tend to look passive, waiting it out. Those students will look to see what they can get away with, while the true noobs and drunks will not know how to use the fold button.

As the stakes increase, the ability to fold becomes more important. That doesn't mean cower, it means that a player has at least some idea about his situation (position and stack size), and realises there will be better opportunities before to long.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
I forgot the most important: the profile of the opponent.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
My partner taught me to play poker, and she taught me that if there's a draw on the table and you've got a hand, make a bet large enough to get them off the pot.


Pain to say but your parents were wrong, at least wrong against what is currently thought to be right way of thinking. The attitude is correct (to bet heavily for value), but reasons wrong.


+1 tbdbitl

+1 dj11
 
Last edited:
A

amitmanchanda

Rock Star
Platinum Level
Joined
Nov 23, 2016
Total posts
312
Awards
1
Chips
229
Ok you know the pot odds and you bet accordingly but what if your opponents doesn't and still calling you and making the flush or straight draw. Cash game is fine, you do make money in long run but how to handle this luck factor in tournament?

I would not say I "defend" when flopping a set or top 2. But what I try to do is offer a price that is wrong for the draws that are out there--flop and turn. But, there are some instances (vs certain opponents or multiway pots) where I don't. There are certain cases where you cannot without grossly over betting the pot. If there is a straight and flush draw on the flop the straight or flush will get there by the river 60% of the time.
 
playinggameswithu

playinggameswithu

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Total posts
2,250
Chips
0
If it is a cash game I over bet the pot trying to take it down right there instead of losing what is my pot. If I am in a tournament and it is multi-way I think about the stack sizes and usually charge to draw so I get a call not an all in semi bluff.I then check when the draw misses to induce a bluff.
 
Top