Dealer error exposes river card in PLO

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sir_lagalot

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Hey guys , had a question regarding something that happened in a PLO game with me recently. Around 8 players on a table and I was the dealer in that hand. The flop opens up with two spades and several players made pot sized bets. Turn card was a king of diamonds or something and everyone makes these huge bets (I had folded). There was one player still left to call but i didn't notice his cards (I think they were concealed) and I opened the river card which was a third spade. The pot was huge at this point and the guy who had yet to call informed me he was still in the hand .. Asking me to put the spade back in the pack and shuffle it and open another turn. All this while it was pretty evident the guy to my right had been on a flush draw and had hit the nut flush but his spade went back in , out came a deuce of diamonds and the guy who's cards I hadn't noticed went all in for his top two pair knowing there were no other flush possibilities. Needless to say the guy who had hit his flush was furious and I felt ridiculously bad.. Offered to excuse myself and hand over my stack which covered his bets but that idea was struck down. My question is , if there was one person left to bet and he had seen the river before calling like in this case , am I requires to reshuffle for another river ? That the general protocol ? And in another case say his cards weren't in front of him would I still have had to do the same or would his hand been mucked for not having his cards on display? Is there anything I could've done ? Any sort of compensation or penalty ? We hadn't established any in this home game but just wondering cause I still feel horrible for how it turned out for the nut flush guy ..
 
steveiam

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Hi..Although you showed the river card it would still have had to be in play. Its unfortunate but it should not have gone back into the pack. Somebody was going to loose out but it happens.
 
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sir_lagalot

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Is that a sure thing ? Because I was searching and I keep reading that if a dealer exposes a turn card or a flop card that its supposed to be shuffled , does it not apply to exposing the river prematurely ?

And if a persons cards are hidden and the dealer does such a thing does that persons hand get mucked ?
 
steveiam

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I have played in a lot of live tournements and seen mistakes happen but the dearler has never re shuffled a deck mid hand...If a turn card is exposed the dealer would make sure that all players had seen the card and carry on.
 
quintass

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I also have never seen a dealer reshuffle at anytime during a live game, mistake or not. My opnion, if this was one of my "very" friendly/family home games for .05-.10, we'd probably all have a good chuckle and continue to play. Now, if this were a more serious $2.00 - $4.00 game, well then, I'd probably demand justice be served. "HANGEM HIGH"! ;-)
 
steveiam

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I also think if the player has his card's concealed then he is at fault..
 
OzExorcist

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What you did in terms of correcting the error was exactly right - you take the prematurely exposed river card off the table (but leave the river burn card alone), reshuffle it into the deck stub and then deal a new river card once the action is complete.

Relevant rules (emphasis added by me) are these ones, from Roberts Rules of Poker Section 5 - Hold 'em:
5. If the dealer burns and turns before a betting round is complete, the card(s) may not be used, even if all subsequent players elect to fold. Nobody has an option of accepting or rejecting the card. The betting is then completed, and the error rectified in the prescribed manner for that situation.

8. A dealing error for the fourth boardcard is rectified in a manner to least influence the identity of the boardcards that would have been used without the error. The dealer burns and deals what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card’s place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the burncards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck and deals the final card without burning a card. If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner.
I've seen the same error handled the exact same way in casinos so even if you don't follow a strict interpretation of Robert's Rules it's still the right thing to do.

In a friendly home game I can see how just leaving the card out is fine. But in any kind of serious game if the dealer isn't taking the card back and correcting the error as presrcibed above then they're either wrong or just plain lazy.

BTW, as long as the player whose action was missed still had his cards on the table then he hasn't done anything wrong - part of the dealer's job is to keep track of who is and isn't in the hand. Their hand should never, EVER be mucked just because someone didn't see the cards. If the player had taken their cards off the table... maybe that's a different matter.

One last thing, especially since this was a genuine and innocent mistake on the part of the dealer there should never be any penalty or anything applied to the dealer. No player should be entitled to any kind of compensation for dealer error because as long as it's corrected appropriately it doesn't affect anybody's EV in the hand, everybody's outs and percentage to win remains unchanged.

Not all players understand that, of course, but their lack of understanding isn't the dealer's fault :p
 
Tropwen

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Burn the card if anything lol but I've never heard of reshuffling mid hand
 
OzExorcist

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Burn the card if anything lol but I've never heard of reshuffling mid hand

Then... you've either never read the rules of the game, or never played in a serious game?

When you think about it, reshuffling the card into the deck stub is the only solution that's fair and makes sense.

If you don't reshuffle the card into the deck stub, and "burn" it instead, then everyone knows that card can't possibly come on the river. Worse than that, the player who hadn't acted on their hand yet would then get to make their decision with that knowledge, even though all the other players made their action without it. DUCY that's unfair?

If you do reshuffle the card back into the deck stub, however, then everybody is acting with the same information and the outcome of the hand is unaffected. The dealer takes that card off the board and everybody knows it's going to be shuffled back into the stub. It's just as likely to come out again once the river is redealt as any other card that was still in the stub.

The player who hadn't acted yet makes their decision with the exact same information that everyone else in the hand had (with respect to the cards, anyway - if one of the other players chose to create a fuss over the river card being redealt and in that way tipped their opponents off that they were drawing or whatever, then that's their own stupid fault). Nobodys outs or percentages to win are affected.

Just to be absolutely clear, we're not talking about reshuffling the entire deck or anything - you only reshuffle the river card into the unused cards that are left in the dealer's hand. The burn cards, live player cards and folded player cards all remain exactly where they are.

Note too that (as the rule describes above) the procedure is different if you prematurely expose the turn card.
 
WEC

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Burn the card if anything lol but I've never heard of reshuffling mid hand

Happens a million times when dealers make errors in games in 'live casinos'

'Exposed Card' always has the chance to be re-dealt onto the river because it is shuffled back into the deck.
 
youregoodmate

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Re-shuffle is standard here.
 
steveiam

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I think also you might find that the rule will very depending on the Location.
 
WEC

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I think also you might find that the rule will very depending on the Location.

Maybe outside the US, but I have not been to a single US Cardroom that does not do it in the way described (of course I have not been to every one :) )

It is one of the very few rules all card rooms follow.
 
JusSumguy

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Oz is right...

Oz is always right. ;)

-
 
tenbob

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Its done the same way in every single card room ive played in ireland as well. Oz is correct.
 
WEC

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Note too that (as the rule describes above) the procedure is different if you prematurely expose the turn card.

The reason they do not reshuffle until the river card if the mistake is made on the turn, is so you will get the exact same river card you would have had without mistake (but it will be on the turn), and only one card is actually effected by the mistake, but you can still get the exact same turn card that was exposed on the river.
 
OzExorcist

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I think also you might find that the rule will very depending on the Location.

As others have pointed out this is one of the rules that really doesn't change from room to room or country to country, and it's because of the reason I mentioned above - taking the card off the board and reshuffling it back into the deck stub after action is complete really is the only fair way to correct the error.
 
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