Controversial way to avoid tilt: The pleasure of retaining chips...

wsbar said:

Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.

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wsbar said:

Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.

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LX4 said:

I remember one crazy hand yesterday where i was playing very tight before the bubble. I had QQ. UTG 3-bets. Then big stack next to me goes all in. Now, i was already pretty sure I was going to fold, but the big stack made it easy and i was very happy in the end. BB short stack called the all-in as well as UTG and i got to see 88 from the original raiser, and JJ from the BB. And the big stack on my right had KK. Chips saved.

What I was particularly happy with, was the UTG dude initially raising, and motivating KK to go all-in. It might have been too tempting to call the initial 3-bet, and after the flop I could have gotten into real trouble. It was a nice way to learn that lesson.

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gon4iypes said:

Hello Madman, I really enjoy reading your posts....well reasoned out and intelligently presented. Thank you!!!

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Rational Madman said:

Some will way 'don't play not to lose chips, only play to gain them'...

WRONG! This is very emotionally damaging to a player and will make you make SILLY moves!

But go ahead and think this way.

You will gain no pleasure when you see a loose donk overbet his 3's and hit 3 of a kind to someone who called him.
...but if you see this and take note of it, you can exploit them for a ton of value when you have a big hand.

Even if this is results-oriented thinking, you shouldn't fold hoping that you get to smile at the lack of loss but you should still enjoy it if your fold was netiher +Ev nor -EV but an avoidance of -EV that is proven to really have saved you from a bad beat.
...If you're in a situation where you have a ton of equity in the hand and you fold because you're afraid of getting sucked out on, then the fold is bad regardless of the results. Folding in a +EV situation is a bad play, unless in really specific situations like ICM pay jumps or satellite ticket payout bubble.

Nothing can please me like a fold where I was going to be brutally coolered (I would certainly have engaged all-in) if I had even entered the flop.
...Like you said, this is result oriented thinking. Coolers don't matter. You get it in good, opponent gets it in better...no biggie.

Lets say you get in with KK and opponent has AA. Cooler, but if you opponent is going to get in with 99+, A10s+ AQo+, KJs+ as often as there are with AA, then folding is terrible.

I smile very much to this. Enjoy the losses you AVOIDED! This is so important to keep you happy to fold but also is important as it teaches you that folding isn't 'safe' it's just one of many ways to react to a player ('betting' isn't one action it's a varied move of many amounts)
...You lose value for your big hands when you make bad folds that would've won.

Case in point: lets say you have nut straight and opponent is on nut flush draw on turn. Pot is 100 BBs and opponent jams 60 BBs with only only 20% equity to win. You need to call 60 BBs to win 160. This gives you a +EV of 116 BBs, it's a profitable call. Even if 60 BBs puts you all-in, it's a profitable call.

With 20% equity, you opponent is only winning 1/5 times and you're only giving up 60 BBs 1/5 times, but if you fold, you completely give up that 160 BB pot you're winning 80% of the time. Call me crazy, but I'd rather give up 60 BBs 20% of the time than miss out on that 160 BB pot I'm winning 4/5 times.

So, yeah, while folding does keep you "safe" from those bad beats, you also give up a ton of value.

Don't feel bored by folding smile at the stupidity of the donkeys and THANK THEM deep down for scaring you away from that loss!
...Well, if the donks are forcing you to make bad folds, then...what does that make you?

Yes, of course nothing is so frustrating as having 10 Q and flopping 9 J and some donk overbets J7 just ot see 8 come at the turn and see a guy with 89 push allin, knowing all those chips would have been yours had the J7 donk not overbet... So to counteract this rage and sadness ENJOY THE BAD BEATS THAT DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU!
...I'm not seeing a bad beat in this example.

Also, you were behind in the hand. So, depending on bet sizes and such, this is likely a good fold or possibly a -EV situation to call for an OESD. I don't know because it depends on a lot of things, but I don't think this is a terrible fold.

This is so important for 2 reasons:

1) It keeps you hooked to the game even while folding and thus you will gain form all folds a read on players at the very least
2) It keeps you happy even while losing chips here and there because you realise how many more you'd have lost with those foolish calls or raises.
...Yes, if you're playing a wide range of hands and making poor/loose limps/calls and not capitalizing when you hit strong, then you'll be bleeding chips.

But going back to my straight vs flush example, giving up + EV spots is giving up value. In that situation, you can fold 100% and save 60 BBs. x 10, that's 600 BBs saved, not bad.

But if you call, 20% of the time you lose 120 BBs and 80% of the time you win 160 BBs. 160 x 8 = 1280.

That's 680 BBs you gave up because you didn't want to lose 60 BBs to a hand with 20% equity. Again, call me foolish, but I'd rather profit 1280 BBs than save 600.

Everyone focuses when things go wrong or right but so few players focus when things go far less wrong than they could have and smile about it.
...That's result oriented thinking.

Simply put, if you make a +EV play and lose, it's still a good play no matter what. Results in poker don't matter, it's the decisions that do.

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ohshootmybad said:

above.

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Rational Madman said:

If you are not results oriented you play like a bot and are so predictable.

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ohshootmybad said:

This makes absolutely no sense.

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Rational Madman said:

I am oriented to the results of my plays not what may work 9/10 times but i get the 1/10 and think oh well im not results oriented. Make the 10/10 plays

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darthdimsky said:

???

Not pretending to be smart. So can you explain with some examples like OSMB did?

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wsbar said:

Madman, do you think it's okay for me to open any hand to see the Flop paying only the BB at the beginning of a tournament?in final position.

Click to expand...

gon4iypes said:

Hello Madman, I really enjoy reading your posts....well reasoned out and intelligently presented. Thank you!!!

Click to expand...

ohshootmybad said:

Originally Posted by Rational Madman
Some will way 'don't play not to lose chips, only play to gain them'...

WRONG! This is very emotionally damaging to a player and will make you make SILLY moves!

But go ahead and think this way.

You will gain no pleasure when you see a loose donk overbet his 3's and hit 3 of a kind to someone who called him.
...but if you see this and take note of it, you can exploit them for a ton of value when you have a big hand.

Even if this is results-oriented thinking, you shouldn't fold hoping that you get to smile at the lack of loss but you should still enjoy it if your fold was netiher +Ev nor -EV but an avoidance of -EV that is proven to really have saved you from a bad beat.
...If you're in a situation where you have a ton of equity in the hand and you fold because you're afraid of getting sucked out on, then the fold is bad regardless of the results. Folding in a +EV situation is a bad play, unless in really specific situations like ICM pay jumps or satellite ticket payout bubble.

Nothing can please me like a fold where I was going to be brutally coolered (I would certainly have engaged all-in) if I had even entered the flop.
...Like you said, this is result oriented thinking. Coolers don't matter. You get it in good, opponent gets it in better...no biggie.

Lets say you get in with KK and opponent has AA. Cooler, but if you opponent is going to get in with 99+, A10s+ AQo+, KJs+ as often as there are with AA, then folding is terrible.

I smile very much to this. Enjoy the losses you AVOIDED! This is so important to keep you happy to fold but also is important as it teaches you that folding isn't 'safe' it's just one of many ways to react to a player ('betting' isn't one action it's a varied move of many amounts)
...You lose value for your big hands when you make bad folds that would've won.

Case in point: lets say you have nut straight and opponent is on nut flush draw on turn. Pot is 100 BBs and opponent jams 60 BBs with only only 20% equity to win. You need to call 60 BBs to win 160. This gives you a +EV of 116 BBs, it's a profitable call. Even if 60 BBs puts you all-in, it's a profitable call.

With 20% equity, you opponent is only winning 1/5 times and you're only giving up 60 BBs 1/5 times, but if you fold, you completely give up that 160 BB pot you're winning 80% of the time. Call me crazy, but I'd rather give up 60 BBs 20% of the time than miss out on that 160 BB pot I'm winning 4/5 times.

So, yeah, while folding does keep you "safe" from those bad beats, you also give up a ton of value.

Don't feel bored by folding smile at the stupidity of the donkeys and THANK THEM deep down for scaring you away from that loss!
...Well, if the donks are forcing you to make bad folds, then...what does that make you?

Yes, of course nothing is so frustrating as having 10 Q and flopping 9 J and some donk overbets J7 just ot see 8 come at the turn and see a guy with 89 push allin, knowing all those chips would have been yours had the J7 donk not overbet... So to counteract this rage and sadness ENJOY THE BAD BEATS THAT DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU!
...I'm not seeing a bad beat in this example.

Also, you were behind in the hand. So, depending on bet sizes and such, this is likely a good fold or possibly a -EV situation to call for an OESD. I don't know because it depends on a lot of things, but I don't think this is a terrible fold.

This is so important for 2 reasons:

1) It keeps you hooked to the game even while folding and thus you will gain form all folds a read on players at the very least
2) It keeps you happy even while losing chips here and there because you realise how many more you'd have lost with those foolish calls or raises.
...Yes, if you're playing a wide range of hands and making poor/loose limps/calls and not capitalizing when you hit strong, then you'll be bleeding chips.

But going back to my straight vs flush example, giving up + EV spots is giving up value. In that situation, you can fold 100% and save 60 BBs. x 10, that's 600 BBs saved, not bad.

But if you call, 20% of the time you lose 120 BBs and 80% of the time you win 160 BBs. 160 x 8 = 1280.

That's 680 BBs you gave up because you didn't want to lose 60 BBs to a hand with 20% equity. Again, call me foolish, but I'd rather profit 1280 BBs than save 600.

Everyone focuses when things go wrong or right but so few players focus when things go far less wrong than they could have and smile about it.
...That's result oriented thinking.

Simply put, if you make a +EV play and lose, it's still a good play no matter what. Results in poker don't matter, it's the decisions that do.

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above.

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Rational Madman said:

Obviously if you allin preflop it is never a 10/10 play. I meant with more post-flop donks where you can easily put them on a hand weaker than you and slowplay them. This is a 10/10 play as you know they'd all-in if they had the better nut hand.

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