Completing from SB

flattershay

flattershay

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Hey. I've noticed that I lose a lot of my completed hands on SB. For example, I'm on SB with K7o, Button limps in, I complete. Flop comes 782r, he bets, I call, turn 2, B/C, river is 4, B/C and ending losing to some J8o or something like this. Mostly flopping top pair with weak kicker or 2nd,3rd pair and ending up losing mostly. What type of hands I should complete and which hands is better to fold?
 
Cajin007

Cajin007

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Depends on the perceived ranges of BTN and BB when your in SB.
Most text and pros will inform an individual that the call range is the tighter of the two, and raise range half that.
Also depends on odds offered, and ev of hand vs said ranges.
 
Amanda A

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I've been doing this a bit too lately and it's not a good combination, mediocre hand, bad position and mediocre play, call call. So how do you avoid this bad combination? Can't do anything about your hand or position. If you'd raised enough either pre flop or post flop or both J8 might have folded. Or they might not have and you would have lost more chips :) Depends on the player. So maybe a judgement is in order. If you don't think you can take the pot away with a good bluff or series of bluffs if you don't flop a monster (and you probably won't) maybe consider folding the sb.
 
SirYivx

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Better off raising or folding from the SB. Against a limp, a call can be fine, but if opponent bets more than one street and you don't have at least top pair, you've gotta let it go. A hand like K7o vs a limp might be better played as a raise, as it has better showdown value but less post-flop play-ability.
 
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Doesn't exactly answer your question, but I will give you something to consider or try to work into your play. It might help.

First off, if you are SB then you act first postflop. So you are check calling every street. I'm not trying to be mean, but in my scenario this is an important detail.

So if you flop something with middling equity (TPWK, middle or bottom pair, flush draw, open ender) and it's not a flop that crushes your opponents range. Your opponent is making reasonable 1/2 pot plus bets. I use checkraises quite a bit here- bump it 1.5 what the opponent bet (if he bets 500, bump it to 1250 which is 750 more than he bet or 1.5*500). Sometimes they'll fold out and you get a nice little boost to your stack, sometimes they'll reraise you making it an easy fold but still cheaper than calling down 3 streets, other times your flop c/r will slow them down, get them to check back the turn, and give you the opportunity to realize all your equity by making it to the river, let you bluff the river, or fold to his bet when he leads.

It's way cheaper to put in one standard c/r than it is to call down every street. Hope this makes sense, I'm kinda tired right now.
 
flattershay

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tmfnsanders said:
Doesn't exactly answer your question, but I will give you something to consider or try to work into your play. It might help.

First off, if you are SB then you act first postflop. So you are check calling every street. I'm not trying to be mean, but in my scenario this is an important detail.

So if you flop something with middling equity (TPWK, middle or bottom pair, flush draw, open ender) and it's not a flop that crushes your opponents range. Your opponent is making reasonable 1/2 pot plus bets. I use checkraises quite a bit here- bump it 1.5 what the opponent bet (if he bets 500, bump it to 1250 which is 750 more than he bet or 1.5*500). Sometimes they'll fold out and you get a nice little boost to your stack, sometimes they'll reraise you making it an easy fold but still cheaper than calling down 3 streets, other times your flop c/r will slow them down, get them to check back the turn, and give you the opportunity to realize all your equity by making it to the river, let you bluff the river, or fold to his bet when he leads.

It's way cheaper to put in one standard c/r than it is to call down every street. Hope this makes sense, I'm kinda tired right now.
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Right now I'm mostly playing freerolls and people doesn't like folding their top pair so I'll most likely get call downed almost always. If I'll go to check-call mode, I'm mostly paying off to their top pairs and etc. Both ways mostly leads to unstaisfying results and that's why I asked this question. Maybe it's better to fold these unconnected hands and create your own range of hands that I'll complete on SB.

SirYivx said:
Better off raising or folding from the SB. Against a limp, a call can be fine, but if opponent bets more than one street and you don't have at least top pair, you've gotta let it go. A hand like K7o vs a limp might be better played as a raise, as it has better showdown value but less post-flop play-ability.
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Raising makes sense but the hand should have some playability. One of the limpers will be always calling and you need to play postflop with a trash hand out of position. Also, I've noticed that people mostly bets small with their top pair in a limped po(for example, 100 chips into 500 pot) and you have to sigh calling on the river with your 2nd pair. Is this a mistake calling with 2nd pairs even if you got the gread odds?
 
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SirYivx

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flattershay said:
Raising makes sense but the hand should have some playability. One of the limpers will be always calling and you need to play postflop with a trash hand out of position. Also, I've noticed that people mostly bets small with their top pair in a limped po(for example, 100 chips into 500 pot) and you have to sigh calling on the river with your 2nd pair. Is this a mistake calling with 2nd pairs even if you got the gread odds?
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I notice this a lot as well. Always check calling will make you exploitable, giving your opponent information about your hand. He can pretty confidently bet his top pair weak kicker on 3 streets if no draws get there. This is why I like the occasional check raise on a scare card or even on the flop or river. It helps you see where you stand in the hand. If opponent calls, its likely he has top pair, a good draw, or an overpair he is slow playing. If not, he will be forced to fold. Some players at the lower stakes, however, don't fold anything.

I don't think it's a mistake check calling down to the river vs a min bet. Sometimes your second pair will be good, and you are getting great odds. But mixing in the check raise can put your opponent in a tough spot even with top pair weak kicker, or even get him to fold pre flop with a 3bet. This makes you harder to read and more difficult for your opponent to continue.
 
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tmfnsanders said:
Doesn't exactly answer your question, but I will give you something to consider or try to work into your play. It might help.

First off, if you are SB then you act first postflop. So you are check calling every street. I'm not trying to be mean, but in my scenario this is an important detail.

So if you flop something with middling equity (TPWK, middle or bottom pair, flush draw, open ender) and it's not a flop that crushes your opponents range. Your opponent is making reasonable 1/2 pot plus bets. I use checkraises quite a bit here- bump it 1.5 what the opponent bet (if he bets 500, bump it to 1250 which is 750 more than he bet or 1.5*500). Sometimes they'll fold out and you get a nice little boost to your stack, sometimes they'll reraise you making it an easy fold but still cheaper than calling down 3 streets, other times your flop c/r will slow them down, get them to check back the turn, and give you the opportunity to realize all your equity by making it to the river, let you bluff the river, or fold to his bet when he leads.

It's way cheaper to put in one standard c/r than it is to call down every street. Hope this makes sense, I'm kinda tired right now.
Click to expand...

not to thread high jack but this line makes more sense with what villains have been doing to me recently

raise from late position and I was in bb with 9/2 off

I completed

flop came 9AA, I bet, villain raised me

I folded

which looking back on it may have been nitty, but I figured he was repping an overpair, but after some thought probably just had two overs
 
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