Checkers and limpers = play more hands?

Salty Mouse

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I'm sure at the level many of you play this is not a phenomenon you ever see anymore.

But in the tanks I swim in with my fellow fish I will more than occassionally be on tables were everybody's trying to get to the flop on the cheap. Lots of checking or minimal bets.

In such a situation would you loosen up the range of hands you go to the flop with, trying to catch something bigger, because it's costing so little do so? Why or why not?

If so, I can see where you'd have to be careful not to let bad habits creep into your game.
 
Siao

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Suited connectors are fine to call behind, especially in a multi-way pot. If you have a really strong hand (AA,KK,QQ) you'll want to raise a substantiial amount to cut the limpers. Don't get addicted to limping with rags because most likely if you hit, you're already behind.
 
Zdydy

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Yes. Checkers and limpers try to see the flop as cheap as possible that is why we raise our premium hands to make them pay to see the flop.
 
Salty Mouse

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Yes. Checkers and limpers try to see the flop as cheap as possible that is why we raise our premium hands to make them pay to see the flop.

This I get. But how much do you expand the range of what you'll play if they're letting you see a flop -- or even a turn or river -- at the minimum bet or for free?
 
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phillyfan810

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You should expand your range but not to the extent where your trying to limp in every hand. I play at micro tables and my style is too play 9-handed cash games and sit back and wait for a premium hand, then take advantage of the loose players at the table.
 
intiekkeko

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Its prolly not a good idea to open up your range too much as even when you raise big at that level you will still attract callers

bring in suited connectors and low pairs but stick to sensible poker

inti
 
c9h13no3

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Raising limpers is the correct adjustment, not limping behind them.

However, if you were to limp behind, make sure its with hands like A2s or 76, hands that make straights/flushes fairly easily. Don't be the chump that plays J7 for a limp.
 
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swingro

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Your range should be premium hands + suited connectors, pocket pairs,AQs AJs, A10s as a basic strategy . Raise hard with premium hands even if you know you will not get too much action or you'll pay the price because nobody will pay with a small pair but you will pay your stack if the opponent has a set and you have Aces on a rainbow flop. W8 for flushes , sets, streights calling postflop only according to pot odds. When you hit value bet. If you hit a set in a 4-5 multyway pot it will be carnage if the flop is rainbow. Do not slowplay your flush, set or streight or you'll pay for your mistake.

Of course there will be bad beats. Lots of them. But playing correctly with the odds on you side every hand you play untill the river will bring you a huge profit.


Tha's only the line you should follow but you should read books like " Ed Miller, David Sklansky, Mason Malmuth - Small Stakes Hold'em". I think is one of the best for cash tables.
 
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OzExorcist

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Raising limpers is the correct adjustment, not limping behind them.

However, if you were to limp behind, make sure its with hands like A2s or 76, hands that make straights/flushes fairly easily. Don't be the chump that plays J7 for a limp.

^ this. Limping behind with a wide range is a sure fire way to give yourself the kicker problems you're complaining about in your other thread.

If you're going to limp behind do it with hands that have the potential to make something very strong and don't get big chunks of your stack in when you only hit something mediocre. Connectors, suited aces and small to medium pairs are reasonable candidates because when you flop a set / straight / flush or a strong draw you've got something you can take a lot of money off someone with.
 
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swingro

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Raising limpers is the correct adjustment, not limping behind them.

However, if you were to limp behind, make sure its with hands like A2s or 76, hands that make straights/flushes fairly easily. Don't be the chump that plays J7 for a limp.

If you limp with A2s, 76 offsuit the chances of catching something are half of AKs, 76s. Plus if you play this kind of hands you will invest a lot more money with a verry big chance to put money in every flop without hitting even once. A2s .. rainbow flop with A on the board and you you are beat. If the opponent raise you have to fold after putting money in the pot even if the opponent is blluffing. If you call and he really has an ace you will pay like hell. Your only chance is to hit the flush wich will happen rarely or at least a flush draw but you will pay chasing the flush. Raise limpers only with premium hands because they might call and you will be in big trouble.
TAG play should be the line to follow because preflop play and chosing the hands you play are important, but what comes after you see the flop is what brings the money. So play hands that will bring you the minimum trouble possible when you have to decide to raise or fold.
 
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Salty Mouse

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Sounds like the correct play is not to be enticed by the sale price if you don't have the potential for something really big. But if the potential for that big hand is there, look for opportunities to bully the limpers.

(I'm sure at higher levels of play you could fall into some slow-better traps. But it seems like the vast majority of those who limp at the levels I play have no hand and are fishing.)

Thanks for the help all.
 
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I say, u gotta play like your table plays. When everybody is limping, it is useless to play aggressive. U gonna win very small pots, and probably lose some big ones. Play it like a ring game. And expect to fold AA after the flop. Well, at least u limped too, right?
 
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swingro

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Maybe i did not made it clear :D.English is not my native language.
If there are limpers i front of you and you expect limpers behind you (everyone limping with garbage), you want to raise hard only with premium hands as a basic startegy. Raising hard with marginal hands like KJs A10s brings trouble when someone calls.
 
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mrmood6007

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I would be careful with opening up your range just because everyone else is calling cheap to the flop. Are you getting the right odds to make the call? If yes, then I would argue you should, only because you could hit something and get paid off with it. The problem with doing so is if this becomes a hard habit to break when you are actually playing against decent players, who know not to play garbage cards. Just make sure you know the differences between a fish and a real player and you will be great!
 
c9h13no3

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Maybe i did not made it clear :D.English is not my native language.
No, you were plenty clear. The problem was your logic. You don't need premium hands to raise limpers with, because they're telling you they have bad hands! KJs becomes a monster when there are limpers in front of you, because they're limping junk like J4s/67/A4 that just won't hit the flop very often. Raise limpers, c-bet the flop, and you'll take the pot down like 80% of the time.
 
MuscleMan76

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No, you were plenty clear. The problem was your logic. You don't need premium hands to raise limpers with, because they're telling you they have bad hands! KJs becomes a monster when there are limpers in front of you, because they're limping junk like J4s/67/A4 that just won't hit the flop very often. Raise limpers, c-bet the flop, and you'll take the pot down like 80% of the time.


This is true, except I don't think you can always assume that their hands are garbage. What happens if they're limping with a good but not great hand out of position. When they call your raise and you c-bet and they flip over AJ and they have you dominated, then you're in trouble. I guess it's just because I play micro stakes and nobody understands position, but I see this happen all the time. If you're playing a turbo, you're usually commited after a c-bet, and if they check-shove you gotta call. I completely agree with you though, I'm just saying you got to be careful. Plus, there's always that guy who limps with AA trying to draw someone to raise with something like KJ.
 
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swingro

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No, you were plenty clear. The problem was your logic. You don't need premium hands to raise limpers with, because they're telling you they have bad hands! KJs becomes a monster when there are limpers in front of you, because they're limping junk like J4s/67/A4 that just won't hit the flop very often. Raise limpers, c-bet the flop, and you'll take the pot down like 80% of the time.

Of course they limp with everything. But than again this kind of avalanche of limping happens at micros where i am almost sure there will be always 2-3 callers after my raise. Or my KJs in a multyway pot of 2-3 callers is just a regular hand. If the pot is 10 7 2 rainbow and they limped with A4 or 67 they will follow me untill the river or worse they will put me all in instantly because it was their plan to get lucky in the first time. They all try to bluff and suspect each other of bluffing witch is quite right. Or ... they call with nothing trying to see if their backdoor flush on a rainbow flop will complete or if they catch their second pair, or if they hit the A untill the river . And this happens all the time at micros. Of course micros is the easyest game to beat but not like this. They will give you their stack when you have a a big hand like they will bet their stack when they hit a pair because the instinct tells them that on a board with only one high card you missed it.

This is the scenarion when they just call, but 50% of the time if someone limped with 66 and you raised after the avalanche of limpers, he will shove all in trying to get lucky.
I just cannot put here all the scenarios at micros 1/2c 2/4c 5/10c that can bring trouble after raising with marginal hands. They do not think and this becomes only a game of who's luckyer after the flop , my KJs or 2-3 donks with garbage.
 
c9h13no3

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poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter By DeucesCracked Poker Videos

BB: $5.37
UTG: $9.62
MP: $5.00
CO: $22.18
BTN: $10.00
Hero (SB): $10.40

MP posts a big blind ($0.10)

Pre Flop: ($0.25) Hero is SB with 3:club: 7:club:
UTG calls $0.10, MP checks, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.10, Hero raises to $1, 2 folds, MP calls $0.90, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.30) Q:heart: 6:heart: T:heart: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.65, MP folds

Final Pot: $2.30
Hero mucks 3:club: 7:club:
Hero wins $2.19
(Rake: $0.11)

*shrug*

Most of the time they fold preflop. Tragedy I had to c-bet that time.
 
Makwa

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Yes open yr range with good potential hands like SCs, but its most important to remember not to trap yourself with trap hands (K6o for example) where you can flop your K but be crippled by yr kicker... so look for good potential flops, not trap situations, and avoid cards that don't work together... :rolleyes: Hope that makes sense.
I also agree w c9, raising and c-betting these tables is usually best strategy, but limping here and there helps mix it up.
 
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Bet more preflop than usual to protect your big pre flop hands. Do the same if you hit a big hand post flop w/ any hand because it is likely the fish will call with anything. Lastly, don't bluff fish.
 
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swingro

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Most of the time they fold preflop. Tragedy I had to c-bet that time.


Now i want to ask something. You do this often?
If not ... you did that one time risking a quarter of your stack ?

I ask this because to be profitable you have to steal often but someone can trap you and all the profit is gone because even the fish feels you raise with air.
If you do this once in a while there is no need to risk a quarter of you stack to win so few because this was a hard hand where the fish could cold called your cbet (if he was indeed a fish) and you would had checked for pot control on the turn cose i do not think you would had shot the second bullet on a board like that. The one that called was a LAG, LAP or TAG player what about the others?

Anyway I see you are an experimented player and i think that before you start your session you carrefully select your table where moves like this have a big chance to work.
What about the general case where the table has LAG, LAP and TAG players and some of them are calling stations? What about full ring game?
One example will not convince me because i was not convinced of the thousands of examples of the rigged thread :)
 
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