Chasing straights/flushes when 2 let go

TheNutz4You

TheNutz4You

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A scenario I find myself in a lot is flopping a flush draw or open ended str8 draw, and I'm in the pot with a villain that is unloading the barrels and betting the flop and the turn. I find myself chasing these draw hands all the way to the river. Of course its nice when the draw comes in, but as we know more times than not, it doesn't show up and I end up giving away a large amount of chips.

So my question is when and where should I be calling/betting a flop and turn with these strong draws? When should I be giving up on the flop? Should I always peel the flop with a nut flush or str8 draw assuming villain doesn't go crazy and bet huge or shove flop ect.
 
akmost

akmost

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https://www.cardschat.com/poker-odds-calculator.php

Take a look at that very useful link the Basic Poker Odds Chart. Personally me I give up the turn hand with open ender and some times with flush draws. if you look closely the open ender gives you 17.4% on the river. It is a low equity spot. But you have to look at your chip stack, if you are deep enough and you can afford the bet of your opponent you just call.If you have a good command of the postflop game you can take down the pot by bluffing the river even with your lost draw.

In general calling off a second barrel with those draws in the longrun is a -ev play but I will say the same thing that everything in poker depends.

Almost every time I bet my draws and as I said previously is the same scenario when to fire a second barrel.
 
TheNutz4You

TheNutz4You

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Makes a lot of sence. I need to start sprinkling in river bluffs on missed draws as I am check/folding to much when they miss. Thank you.
 
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JNogard

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I find I have done the same thing too many times. Chasing draws. I have started to learn how to reraise as a semi bluff or fold on the turn.

I've started to learn that letting others lead when you are "behind" tends to be a tough spot. Not sure if I'm correct yet or not lol. Its working out better then what I was doing though.
 
okeedokalee

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Before you start "river bluffing" you need to know your opponent's style.Calling stations don't give on calling and will call you very light and LAGs will call your river bluff with hands such as AK if they think you are weak .
 
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TheLegend27

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A scenario I find myself in a lot is flopping a flush draw or open ended str8 draw, and I'm in the pot with a villain that is unloading the barrels and betting the flop and the turn. I find myself chasing these draw hands all the way to the river. Of course its nice when the draw comes in, but as we know more times than not, it doesn't show up and I end up giving away a large amount of chips.

So my question is when and where should I be calling/betting a flop and turn with these strong draws? When should I be giving up on the flop? Should I always peel the flop with a nut flush or str8 draw assuming villain doesn't go crazy and bet huge or shove flop ect.


If we're playing from a pure math standpoint, I think your pot odds are supposed to equal your equity in the hand?

So let's say you have an open ended straight draw, 8 outs assuming nobody has your card. Rough math = 32% right? becomes 16% roughly on turn.

So in theory, pot is 67 bucks, you check villain bets 33, your pot odds are roughly 1/3. That merits a call.

Now the issue is, if you blank the turn and they fire another barrel for half pot, 1/3, or even 2/3, the math isn't in your favor anymore. I generally call for 1/2 pot or below if the person has a good stack behind them and I know I can get paid if it hits. That's the implied odds right there.

I think this might help you out a bit more!
 
TheNutz4You

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If we're playing from a pure math standpoint, I think your pot odds are supposed to equal your equity in the hand?

So let's say you have an open ended straight draw, 8 outs assuming nobody has your card. Rough math = 32% right? becomes 16% roughly on turn.

So in theory, pot is 67 bucks, you check villain bets 33, your pot odds are roughly 1/3. That merits a call.

Now the issue is, if you blank the turn and they fire another barrel for half pot, 1/3, or even 2/3, the math isn't in your favor anymore. I generally call for 1/2 pot or below if the person has a good stack behind them and I know I can get paid if it hits. That's the implied odds right there.

I think this might help you out a bit more!

This makes a lot of sence, Now I need to learn to do pot odds and equity calculations on the fly now :eek:. well back to the lab. Thanks Guys
 
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If we're playing from a pure math standpoint, I think your pot odds are supposed to equal your equity in the hand?

Your calculations are correct if you assume that villain never folds. It is wrong assumption even on micro stakes, though of course fold equity on micro will be probably much lower than on higher stakes on average.

So to actually to calculate your total equity you would have to calculate fold equity as well. As this is of course impossible to do as accurately as pot equity, you can only try to guess, what is fold equity in certain spot. For example, if you know that villain is a calling station, you should maybe be aggressive only with very strong draws like open ended straight draw + flush draw or flush draw with 2 over cards.

Also this is the reason to let go medium and weak draws OOP. In position you are much more likely to bluff your opponent.
 
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titiduru

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A scenario I find myself in a lot is flopping a flush draw or open ended str8 draw, and I'm in the pot with a villain that is unloading the barrels and betting the flop and the turn. I find myself chasing these draw hands all the way to the river. Of course its nice when the draw comes in, but as we know more times than not, it doesn't show up and I end up giving away a large amount of chips.

So my question is when and where should I be calling/betting a flop and turn with these strong draws? When should I be giving up on the flop? Should I always peel the flop with a nut flush or str8 draw assuming villain doesn't go crazy and bet huge or shove flop ect.

You need to read and understand odds and implied odds, in both limit and no limit games. There is a significant difference between the two.
 
TheNutz4You

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I play strictly NL, but ive been digging into the odd calculator and many articles on here that explain odds in poker. Thanks
 
lilcharlierich

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Let it go never chase it will kill ya
 
Amanda A

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As well as implied odds you can consider the reverse of that -you hit your hand and you lose anyway because your opponent catches a card - eg opponents 2 pair becomes a boat. just something else to think about when you are doing the math. :)
 
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