CASH Games Advice

turbobrain · Aug 28, 2009

I need advice on my cash game:

I just started playing in Apirl 09. I never played before in my life.

-I typically play with the same core group of people with the new guys popping in and out.

-Min $100 Max $300
-1/3NL Hold-Em
-I always buy in for $120.

What I am noticing is that the games where I win a big hand, say with pocket KKs or 10s that turn into sets, I go up about $100 or bucks. So now I am typically sitting with $180 to $250 and it is all down here from here. What usually happens is that a few other people bust to other players and so one or two other players are deep stacked say $400 $500 about an hour or two later in the game and they bet more aggressively and I tend to fold or get scared when I don't have a decent hand. I might call the turn and river with a $30-$40 bet and then say a $50 or all-in re-raise on me and I fold most of the time.

In my mind, I get attached to "being up" and I don't want to lose my lead. Therefore, little by little, my stack diminishes and then I go all in with my last 30-$50 bucks and sometimes win or lose and then leave...

I basically have a hard time playing with middle pair or top pair, good kicker..

The other problem I have is betting and raising..it is easy to get when you have a strong hand (set or two pair)...but when I am betting and people are calling me down, it gets me nervous when they dont go away...

Can anyone help me out?

turbobrain · Sep 9, 2009

bump!

whoopwhoop · Sep 9, 2009

i think you should play smaller stakes. for instance .50/1. if you buyin 100 at that game you are in good position and wont be the low stack.

shinedown.45 · Sep 9, 2009

You have to go to lower stakes or do not play scared.
Make your usual raises but follow them up with a c-bet on the flop even if you miss.
If your playing premium hands but not following up on a missed board, you are playing scared.
I don't play that level but assume a raise followed by a c-bet gains alot of respect.

slycbnew · Sep 9, 2009

Like whoop and shinedown, I strongly suggest lower stakes - if you and your friends want to learn to play the game well, try something like $0.50/$1 or better yet $0.25/$0.50. Otherwise it sounds like the money means a bit too much to you.

While I'm sure you can afford losing the $120 that you regularly buyin, playing cash games well generally means you need to be able to lose 100x the big blind (i.e., $300) a couple of times over and shrug both losses off, and be ready to buyin a third time. If you can't do that, your options for playing hands are extremely limited.

What do I mean by limited - there are two ways to win a hand, by showing down the best hand after all river betting is completed, or by getting everyone else to fold before showdown. The only way to get everyone to fold before showdown is to bet more than the other guy is willing to call. If you don't have the ability to do that because your stack isn't big enough (you see why I think smaller stakes is a good idea) or because you're playing scared money, you are limited to winning hands at showdown.

Side note - sounds to me like at least a couple of your friends are not playing scared money. This isn't meant to be offensive, but (old saying) if you look around the table and can't identify who the fish is, it's you.

And it does sound like you'd benefit from a little reading here on this forum - some of your comments make it sound like you'd strongly benefit from discussions of postflop play - I'd look for threads and articles that discuss cbets, aggression, playable hands, pot odds, and drawing.

gl!

jijiboss · Sep 9, 2009

Have you ever heard about bankroll management? First of all I've seen you just star playing a few month ago. You should read some theory first...

Arjonius · Sep 9, 2009

Being afraid to lose is a recipe for... losing. It makes it easy for people to win pots from you through aggression; i.e. by betting until you fold. Sure, sometimes you'll have a monster and not fold, but those hands come along less often than moderate ones.

If you're calling $30-40 on the flop and turn, then folding for $50 on the river, it would appear you're unaware of pot odds, chasing too much, or both. You may also be a calling station.

Given you're able to win some large pots, you can probably beat the game just by not giving all your winning back. Playing very tight isn't especially fun since you play very few hands, but it's generally a winning approach in games where the level of play isn't advanced. Of course, you can win even more by improving your game so you're one of the better players.

Lemlywinks · Sep 9, 2009

slycbnew said:
Like whoop and shinedown, I strongly suggest lower stakes - if you and your friends want to learn to play the game well, try something like $0.50/$1 or better yet $0.25/$0.50. Otherwise it sounds like the money means a bit too much to you.

While I'm sure you can afford losing the $120 that you regularly buyin, playing cash games well generally means you need to be able to lose 100x the big blind (i.e., $300) a couple of times over and shrug both losses off, and be ready to buyin a third time. If you can't do that, your options for playing hands are extremely limited.

What do I mean by limited - there are two ways to win a hand, by showing down the best hand after all river betting is completed, or by getting everyone else to fold before showdown. The only way to get everyone to fold before showdown is to bet more than the other guy is willing to call. If you don't have the ability to do that because your stack isn't big enough (you see why I think smaller stakes is a good idea) or because you're playing scared money, you are limited to winning hands at showdown.

Side note - sounds to me like at least a couple of your friends are not playing scared money. This isn't meant to be offensive, but (old saying) if you look around the table and can't identify who the fish is, it's you.

And it does sound like you'd benefit from a little reading here on this forum - some of your comments make it sound like you'd strongly benefit from discussions of postflop play - I'd look for threads and articles that discuss cbets, aggression, playable hands, pot odds, and drawing.

gl!

Best advice here man. Your $120 is an odd 40bb stack to begin with. It doesn't give you enough blinds to setmine medium pairs, play suited connectors or anything. Every hand you get involved in is pretty much committing you. I would suggest what the others have said, buy in for $300 or drop down limits.

playsuji6 · Sep 9, 2009

Yep!! Once upon a time me too suffer from the same situation nw u had, i will be called for decent pair or flush or str8 draw then they will bet higher making me fold most of time. If i would call this and i will lose it.

Then, you should play some low stakes/ SNG to improve your game and Be a aggressive player and make others to fold.

turbobrain · Sep 9, 2009

fish

Thanks for all the replies so far...I don't know of any micro-stakes in the area, I live in NW Washington DC...

I will say though that I play much better online .5ct-.10...but it is not enough action for me...winning a dollar here and two dollars there is not worth my time...I am looking to cash up a few hundred a night.

Anyway, the reason I play with $120 is because I play 5 nights a week, which means I spend about $600 a week playing poker, assuming I bust each night, which is about 65% of the time. I suppose I should just buy into the 1/2 NL for $250 instead and play twice a week. Perhaps that would be a better for me.

I do have to agree that my post-flop play is horrible, most people fold when I bet postflop...I find that I don't get myself into the big pots, like the other players, unless I am the one raising big and I get called...although I will say that when I get aggressive because in my mind I say ****-in, everyone gets scared and folds or re-raises me big, very interesting psychology experiment.

Can anyone point to good resources for advanced beginner-intermediate play...a lot of the post stress the importance betting or raising and never calling...what's wrong with calling?

Lemlywinks · Sep 9, 2009

No Limit Hold'em: theory and practice by Ed miller and David Sklansky is great. I'm almost done with it and it really helped me out a lot

There are other ones out there for sure, but that is a good start. If you use the Search feature here to the Golden Archive, there are some very good articles posted aswell

slycbnew · Sep 9, 2009

Try looking at below link for some great articles on playing in general - alot of it applies to postflop - too much to read in one sitting, but excellent stuff...

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/ring-game-hand-analysis-required-reading-144488/

Why is calling generally a bad idea (note that it's sometimes correct to call, it's not always the wrong play)? In general, it means that you're looking to hit a draw of one sort or another, whether you have a straight draw, flush draw, or overcards - in other words, your hand is not the best hand in the pot, you know (or strongly suspect) it's not, and you're praying to hit something. The problem is that the odds of you hitting are usually not good enough to justify putting more money in the pot.

This whole idea depends on an understanding of pot odds and implied odds - look here:

https://www.cardschat.com/odds-for-dummies.php

The other reason calling is usually a bad idea - there are two ways to win, showdown the best hand or force everyone else to fold - nobody can fold when you call, so you have to have the best hand at showdown.

I recently read an excellent book by an excellent player who classifies all players into three categories:

Bad Passive players (limp/calls a lot preflop, calls alot postflop, doesn't lead/raise alot)
Bad Aggressive players (lead/raise when they shouldn't, plays too many hands, bluffs transparently too much)
Good Aggressive players (aggressive play, knows when to bet/raise/fold, good hand reading skills)

Note that there is no "Good Passive" category according to this player.

slycbnew · Sep 9, 2009

turbobrain said:
I do have to agree that my post-flop play is horrible, most people fold when I bet postflop...

This is the other reason that calling a lot is bad - if I get a read on you that when you're chasing you call, and when you have a strong hand you bet, I will never call a bet from you without the near nuts. This means you won't get paid off with your big hands and will lose lots of small pots with your drawing hands.

If instead I can't tell when you bet whether you have a strong hand, a medium hand, or complete air, I will play back at you in pots. When I play back at you and you have complete air, you will lose a small pot. When I play back at you and you have a medium hand, you will win some medium pots and lose some medium pots. When I play back at you and you have a strong hand, you will win some medium pots, lose some medium pots when I outdraw you, you will win some large pots, and you will occasionally lose some large pots.

Getting good at hand reading/situational analysis means you'll win more than you lose.

Ranger390 · Sep 10, 2009

The best source of info on cash games that I have found is Harrington's two volumes of "Harrington on Cash Games." I usually play Limit ring games, but am trying to build my No Limit skills and this is the best source that I've found.

Mase31683 · Sep 11, 2009

turbobrain said:
what's wrong with calling?

In a poker hand there are two ways to win.

1) Show down the best hand
2) THIEF that pot!

Calling can only win one way ever. If you're calling down you simply have to end up with the best hand. Also, if you make a mistake as the aggressor, you don't even lose the full amount you lost, because your image will be affected in a way that will likely earn you more money later in the session.

Here's an example

You have

in the CO and raise to 4bb
Villain is the BB and calls.

Flop:

Villain checks, you cbet 6bb into 8, Villain calls.

Turn:

Villain checks, you bet 17 into 20, Villain calls.

River:

Pot is 54bb, villain checks, you bet 65bb and he calls,

He flips up

He wins the pot, but his play was far worse. It's not even close. Even on the river, your bet gives him just under 2:1 so you have to be bluffing 36% of the time to make a call there profitable.

Our mistake of firing 3 barrells with pocket 3's isn't really that bad. We're very likely to win this hand before showdown anyway, so we get some of the loss back in that fold equity. Then we show up with a pair lower than anything on the board and everyone sees we fired three streets with it. So now our opponents are going to adjust and start calling us wider, which is equity we wouldn't have gained without this bluff, so there's even more of the mistake being erased.

In general, passive mistakes are worse than aggressive ones.

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CASH Games Advice

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