Calling all ins post flop with flush draws and O H ST Ds

razshahan

razshahan

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How should i play if someone pushes all in on the flop or turn and i have a flush draw or an open hand st draw or both?
 
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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Oh man, this is a great question. I'll assume your question is about cash games- we can just talk pure numbers if that is the case.

If your opponent shoves on the flop, there are a number of strong draws that you can call with. Most of these you can shove with yourself. Most of these "strong draws" are better than some made hands and will at least offer you 50% equity... but since action is happening on the flop, some of the time you wont even need 50%!

Strong Draws

Straight-flush draw
:jh4: :10h4: ON A :ac4: :9h4: :8h4: BOARD

against a hand as strong as :as4: :ks4: you are a 56.26% favorite!

2 Overcards + Flush Draw

:kh4: :qh4: ON A :jc4: :2h4: :3h4: BOARD

against a hand like :js4: :10s4: you are a 54.14% favorite!

I'm getting pretty tired and have an interview tomorrow, so I'll wrap this post up now. Suffice it to say that there are many circumstances when calling with a draw is ok.

Perhaps your question wasn't even about strong draws (lol, sorry I'm tired).

If that's the case then it really comes down to pot odds. If you had a Flush draw w/ One Overcard, for example, you would be a 47.2% dog in some circumstances, but when you consider what you stand to win, it's still worth a call.

I'd experiment with a poker odds calculator to see your equity in different scenarios. They are free online, and there is even one offered on this site.

When you are analyzing your play this is something to look out for. If you have any trouble understanding anything, let me know. I hope this was somewhat useful. :eek:
 
razshahan

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thanks teh. Hope when you get time you will discuss a bit more and also about MTTs.
 
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hffjd2000

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Is it a cash game or tourney? Is it low stake or medium?

If this is low stake and/or tourney, chance I call 40% of the time.

There is also a difference between calling at flop and turn.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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I'm not the best person to talk about this since I mainly play low-limit SNGs, but I'll throw out some ideas for you. (Also I'm just a terrible player!) Hopefully others will chime in.

In a MTT, considering whether to call an all-in depends on a number of things, like your stack size, opponents stack size, current blinds, # of players left/proximity to bubble, if there are re-buys etc etc. It also depends on your bankroll, the stakes you are playing at, and what you are comfortable with.

Some people would risk their tournament life early on for a huge chip lead. There are some cool videos about this... check out this one, its sort of an overhead theory vid about risk/reward strategies in a MTT:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b_2yYkviDQ

If you aren't already, familiarize yourself with basic odds and pot odds. There is a cool article on here called "Odds for Dummies," that explains these concepts quite well.

In a tournament setting, players will often take routes that secure them a decent amount of chips, while avoiding small risks, even if it means they could earn more.

This seems to be the scenario your opponents are putting you in. If your opponent puts you on a draw, and he has a made hand, he can either chose to make you pay to draw, or he can blow you out of the pot. These all-ins may be the ladder, and there is some credit to this strategy depending on the size of the pot in relating to stack sizes, and other things.

So... when to call? I'm going to guess and say its more often correct to fold, especially when our Opponent shoves on the Turn. The urge to call is probably more often frustration... I started a thread recently about these flop all-ins in a SNG... I get so mad when my opponent refuses to play poker lol, but it is part of the game and we need to learn to counter this strategy.

The more accurate you can get with hand reading the better when considering a call. Often times if he shoves on the flop, you will have only a vague idea of what Villain has. But did he open raise pre flop? Limp-call? Call your raise in position? 3-bet? These combined with your previous reads on Villain will give you a sense of where you stand.

Then its just a matter of knowing your outs. Most people understand the basic outs for flushes and straights, but maybe your overcard will give you 3 extra outs. Maybe you also have a gut-shot strait draw... having a precise knowledge of where you stand is vital to calling an all-in.

Next is pot odds... am I getting a good price to call? Since I'm not too familiar with tournament play, you may want to look into how the ICM (independent chip model) affects tournament play at different stages. This could slightly warp your actual money EV, so make sure you are getting significantly better odds to call than you normally would. I can't explain this too well, but be sure to look up this concept and read how it applies to MTTs.

And, of course, the last circumstance is being pot committed. Sometimes you'll be forced all-in yourself due to your stack size and odds. It all really depends on those things (Stack size + pot odds). Consider where folding leaves you. If you fold, will you be crippled for the rest of the tournament? Will you be dead by the time the blinds come around? etc, etc..

If this is a play Villain makes against you a lot, consider beating him to the punch... in some cases it may be better to shove on the flop than to check. This is mainly just a point to help you understand your opponents strategy, but when you bet, you can win in 2 ways (opponent folds or you have the best hand). When you call you can only win by having the best hand. Shoving yourself gives what is known as fold equity.

I'd ask more questions here and post hand histories so we can get a better idea of the situations you have been put in.
 
PLAYINBIG

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If its early in a game and its a rebuy tournament I would call post flop especially if I had a chip stack advantage .On the post flop , a open end straight draw you would have 8 outs to make your straight that would give you about 32% chance of hitting on turn and about 16% hitting on river.A flush draw you would have about 36% chance of hitting on turn and about 18% chance on river.
 
Ronaldadio

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It also depends on your bankroll, the stakes you are playing at, and what you are comfortable with.

I'm nit picking here. A lot of what you say is good, but the quote above from what u have said is terrible advice.

Simply put, your decision during a game should NOT be made on your bankroll in any way, shape or form. You make your bankroll decision BEFORE you enter a game.

Just pointing this out... ;)
 
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rhombus

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I'm nit picking here. A lot of what you say is good, but the quote above from what u have said is terrible advice.

Simply put, your decision during a game should NOT be made on your bankroll in any way, shape or form. You make your bankroll decision BEFORE you enter a game.

Just pointing this out... ;)

unless they are talking about high variance like omaha where there are lots of flips, in that case if you are fully bankrolled then you are able to risk your stack when you know you are at least a flip, because if you arent bankrolled for the game then you cant take those risks as it could wipe you out if you go on a bad run:D
 
Ronaldadio

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unless they are talking about high variance like omaha where there are lots of flips, in that case if you are fully bankrolled then you are able to risk your stack when you know you are at least a flip, because if you arent bankrolled for the game then you cant take those risks as it could wipe you out if you go on a bad run:D

If you are not fully bankrolled for a game u should not be playing in it, simple as. It makes no difference if it is high variance or not.

Unless we are getting confused here?

If I have a bankroll of $100 I can only play a max of $2 MTT, $5 Single table SNG, $5 NLHE ring games
 
suby_rafael

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Well you take into consideration a few things here to help you make your decision. One of them is the perceived hand range of the villain in that spot, or what cards do you think he is most likely to make such a move with. You have to most times trust your first instinct in such situations. That will help you in determining the strength of the villains' hand.

You can also use math to make your decisions much easier. calculate the amount in the pot, bet sizing pre flop and on later streets and the bet on the river in relation to the pot. If you get good implied odds then it can help you immensely in making a call. :icon_pira
 
T

tomnovember

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How should i play if someone pushes all in on the flop or turn and i have a flush draw or an open hand st draw or both?

Try to calculate your outs and pot odds. Furthermore, you shall also use the stake - money model to evaluate the value of you EV.
 
JPoling

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I think I am calling regardless with those outs.
 
razshahan

razshahan

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Well you take into consideration a few things here to help you make your decision. One of them is the perceived hand range of the villain in that spot, or what cards do you think he is most likely to make such a move with. You have to most times trust your first instinct in such situations. That will help you in determining the strength of the villains' hand.

You can also use math to make your decisions much easier. calculate the amount in the pot, bet sizing pre flop and on later streets and the bet on the river in relation to the pot. If you get good implied odds then it can help you immensely in making a call. :icon_pira
that helped a lot, thank you :)
 
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joe777

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You may considered calling if you had an open ended straight or flush draw because it had a very good implied odds.
 
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