on the bubble

coolnout · Jun 9, 2009

How are you supposed to play when you encounter a situation like this on the bubble? Like let's say I'm 30th and top 27 players get paid. There's 40 some players left. I have a little below average stack, but one double up and I'm in good shape and assured a spot in the money. The blinds have reached the point where if you play a hand (5,000 750 antes) and make a wrong move you're gonna take a serious hit to your stack. I get super tight and try to only play the best hands. However, if they don't come I just simply get blinded down. I was simply trying to finish in the money, then loosen up after I was assured a spot. I was waiting for a premium hand but it never came. Do I just have to push to steal blinds and hope for the best instead of blinding out. It was just such a frustrating position to be in. I didn't know what to do. In the end I just had to push with rags and missed out by a couple spots. I guess I should have recognized the situation and pushed earlier when I had position and if they wake up with a hand I'm dominated. Oh well. I just thought I'd hit a hand eventually, but it never came.

Tublecain · Jun 10, 2009

This used to happen to me a lot too, until I learned that most people play this way (i.e. super tight on the bubble). You can take advantage of this by stealing blinds (and maybe even getting a chance to knock someone out if you hit your hand, getting you even closer to the money).

Think of it this way: over the long run (and we should always be thinking long run in poker) you will win more money by being aggressive than passive. Why? Because by sitting it out until you're in the money risks two things: 1) you either get blinded out, or 2) even if you do make the money, you're always super short stacked and have less of a chance of making the real money (top 5 or 3). In other words, its better to bust out on the bubble by playing aggressively 15 times, making top 3 once, than it is to get bottom rung prize (usually barely more than the buy in, every time).

Hope that helps, and good luck at the tables!

MainEventOrBust · Jun 10, 2009

coolnout said:
I get super tight and try to only play the best hands. However, if they don't come I just simply get blinded down. I was simply trying to finish in the money, then loosen up after I was assured a spot.

There are many players like you in every tournament, and they are easily exploited. Aggressive players figure out quickly who is trying not to bubble, and begin stealing their blinds.

You don't need to start making wild all-in shoves, just figure out who the other tight players are, and exploit them when you are in position, and have a marginal hand. Remember, even if somehow you end up all in with a playable hand, you are usually going to be 30-50% against hands that you end up all in with, and will be poised to make the final table instead of just making the money. Usually finishing just in the money means you played several hours to get a little more than your money back--don't make that your goal, try to make the final table, and once you get there, try to take 1st. The prize pools go up exponentially.

coolnout · Jun 10, 2009

MainEventOrBust said:
There are many players like you in every tournament, and they are easily exploited. Aggressive players figure out quickly who is trying not to bubble, and begin stealing their blinds.

You don't need to start making wild all-in shoves, just figure out who the other tight players are, and exploit them when you are in position, and have a marginal hand. Remember, even if somehow you end up all in with a playable hand, you are usually going to be 30-50% against hands that you end up all in with, and will be poised to make the final table instead of just making the money. Usually finishing just in the money means you played several hours to get a little more than your money back--don't make that your goal, try to make the final table, and once you get there, try to take 1st. The prize pools go up exponentially.

I figured that out tonight. I was getting blinded down once again. Two large stacks to my right. Turns out they were just raising with very marginal hands. What happened was he put me all in when I happened to have pocket Queens. So of course I made the call and he had raised to 18,000 with Qc 7s and was totally dominated. Was great to double up. Then I had Ace Five of diamonds. The other big stack raised it to 1850 with Nine Five of hearts. I called, the flop comes 5spades King Diamonds 4 clubs He immediately pushes all in I call The turn was 4 of spades, and 4 of hearts. We tied for the pot with a full house. :/ After that I finally got respect, was raised again to 3375 chips I pushed all in and he folded to me. Was a great feeling.

Is that pretty standard play nearing the end when the blinds are so big? The large stacks just start raising very marginal hands? Well, I figured first my goal should be to get in the money. Then once that is accomplished my goal is to get first.

Tublecain · Jun 10, 2009

Glad you got to taste a little of what it's like to have the eye of the tiger. Great feeling isn't it? To be the one pushing them around instead of being pushed around. Keep on putting those feelers out and experimenting with more aggressive (but still smart and calculated) play.

coolnout said:
Is that pretty standard play nearing the end when the blinds are so big?

I wouldn't say it's so much "standard play", as it is that the smart players always try to identify the weaknesses in their opponents and exploit them. If their weakness (and a lot of players do have this weakness) is folding every hand except KK and AA once they near the bubble, then they will exploit them by stealing blinds and pushing them around. Make sure that they can't have that control over you, and defend yourself.

coolnout said:
Well, I figured first my goal should be to get in the money. Then once that is accomplished my goal is to get first.

Don't get me wrong, aiming to get in the money isn't bad per se, it just puts things in the wrong perspective. The perspective of: as long as I make the money, I'm good. As long as you're thinking that way, you will never be motivated enough to make aggressive plays on the bubble, so its like fighting with one arm tied behind your back. You should always be going for first, or at least the final table (if its a larger field).

Trust me I used to have the same problem; I just couldn't raise unless I had premium holdings, and kept folding to the other people's raises. But just have discipline, and pick a spot by using your reads. For example, say the player to your right has raised almost every time he's on the Button to steal your blind. Next time just say "ok, as long as I don't have absolute trash, next turn I'm going to 3-bet his raise and see what happens." You'll be surprised at how many times s/he'll fold. I know it's hard, I still have a hard time with it when I'm getting cold cards. But at that point in the tourney your Fold equity (chances of the other players folding), is more important than the actual cards!

Let us know how you progress, best of luck!

coolnout · Jun 10, 2009

Tublecain said:
Glad you got to taste a little of what it's like to have the eye of the tiger. Great feeling isn't it? To be the one pushing them around instead of being pushed around. Keep on putting those feelers out and experimenting with more aggressive (but still smart and calculated) play.

I wouldn't say it's so much "standard play", as it is that the smart players always try to identify the weaknesses in their opponents and exploit them. If their weakness (and a lot of players do have this weakness) is folding every hand except KK and AA once they near the bubble, then they will exploit them by stealing blinds and pushing them around. Make sure that they can't have that control over you, and defend yourself.

Don't get me wrong, aiming to get in the money isn't bad per se, it just puts things in the wrong perspective. The perspective of: as long as I make the money, I'm good. As long as you're thinking that way, you will never be motivated enough to make aggressive plays on the bubble, so its like fighting with one arm tied behind your back. You should always be going for first, or at least the final table (if its a larger field).

Trust me I used to have the same problem; I just couldn't raise unless I had premium holdings, and kept folding to the other people's raises. But just have discipline, and pick a spot by using your reads. For example, say the player to your right has raised almost every time he's on the Button to steal your blind. Next time just say "ok, as long as I don't have absolute trash, next turn I'm going to 3-bet his raise and see what happens." You'll be surprised at how many times s/he'll fold. I know it's hard, I still have a hard time with it when I'm getting cold cards. But at that point in the tourney your Fold Equity (chances of the other players folding), is more important than the actual cards!

Let us know how you progress, best of luck!

Thanks for all the helpful advice. It definitely helped me a ton. Ya, it was a great feeling to have the eye of the tiger. I never had that feeling before and I got a little carried away with it. I called an all-in with 8-9 suited and was dominated by pocket 10's. Oh well that definitely won't happen next time. I definitely understand the situation heading into the bubble and final table alot more now, and I'll try to work on my game and reads as I progress. Thanks again for all your help and time.

Kuberr · Jun 10, 2009

Tublecain said:
This used to happen to me a lot too, until I learned that most people play this way (i.e. super tight on the bubble). You can take advantage of this by stealing blinds (and maybe even getting a chance to knock someone out if you hit your hand, getting you even closer to the money).

Think of it this way: over the long run (and we should always be thinking long run in poker) you will win more money by being aggressive than passive. Why? Because by sitting it out until you're in the money risks two things: 1) you either get blinded out, or 2) even if you do make the money, you're always super short stacked and have less of a chance of making the REAL money (top 5 or 3). In other words, its better to bust out on the bubble by playing aggressively 15 times, making top 3 once, than it is to get bottom rung prize (usually barely more than the buy in, every time).

Hope that helps, and good luck at the tables!

I think this is very true. I mean, if you've been playing for hours, I'd rather go for the win and 20% of the prize pool than just barely make it and get 0.5% of the prize pool. Like others have said, the bubble is a great opportunity to play aggressive and take other people's blinds. You do have to be cautious and play the right hands though. Specifically, if I'm on the button, I would definitely try and raise if everyone folded to me.

MainEventOrBust · Jun 11, 2009

coolnout said:
I had Ace Five of diamonds. The other big stack raised it to 1850 with Nine Five of hearts. I called, the flop comes 5spades King Diamonds 4 clubs He immediately pushes all in I call

Congrats on the newfound aggression. That said, I'm not sure I could make the call you did here. With a preflop raise, and a K hitting the board, I'm probably going to abandon middle pair here. Remember, the key to being aggressive is to be the one who is betting and raising. Calling off your stack is rarely a good idea, unless you know for certain you have the best hand.

coolnout · Jun 11, 2009

MainEventOrBust said:
Congrats on the newfound aggression. That said, I'm not sure I could make the call you did here. With a preflop raise, and a K hitting the board, I'm probably going to abandon middle pair here. Remember, the key to being aggressive is to be the one who is betting and raising. Calling off your stack is rarely a good idea, unless you know for certain you have the best hand.

Ya, it was a stupid call probably made out of frustration at the time of being card dead and constantly raised to. It was just a rather strange play. He had a large stack with position and to make an all in bet after the flop immediately seemed strange to me like he was bluffing. Which was a wrong call because he did have a 5. I just felt strongly I had the best hand which is why I made it. The problem I'm dealing with at times now is say I have an above average stack. Say 25,000 or and the money is still a ways away. The rest of the people at my table have 20,000 10,000 etc. The blinds have started to get up there and are worth stealing lets say around 1,000. Am I supposed to be more aggressive? or do I just keep playing the way that got me to that point. Here's a play I have a question about. I get dealt pocket 7's with position. I raise it to 3,000 everybody folds I get one caller who is at about 1/3 the size of my stack. Okay flop comes [9d Qd Kd] At this point am I supposed to make a semi-large continuation bet and hope he gets out of the hand and I take it down? I ended up checking it, and he checked it then 10 of spades came on the turn and he bet 2400 and I folded.

Tom1559 · Jun 11, 2009

I think a lot depends on factors like are the other bubble players at your table, do you want to cash at the lower end or would you rather go for bigger cash, are you up against big stacks. I have found recently that being more aggressive near the bubble can get you there. However only be aggressive if the other players are also at risk. Not an easy call this and you need to think your way through each particular game differently. Good luck.

Tublecain · Jun 12, 2009

coolnout said:
Thanks for all the helpful advice. It definitely helped me a ton. Ya, it was a great feeling to have the eye of the tiger. I never had that feeling before and I got a little carried away with it. I called an all-in with 8-9 suited and was dominated by pocket 10's. Oh well that definitely won't happen next time. I definitely understand the situation heading into the bubble and final table alot more now, and I'll try to work on my game and reads as I progress. Thanks again for all your help and time.

Glad you found the advice helpful. I would never have realized the advantages of tight but aggressive play, and of knowing how to change your game up, had it not been for this powerhouse of a forum. I am only glad to help spread the good advice around. Good luck at the tables!

only_bridge · Jun 13, 2009

Its not wrong to play tight closing in on the bubble, but that is way to early, and with way to small stack.
Lets say its 29 players left and 27 get payed, and you are currently a little bit above avg, then maybe you can tighten up and play on surviving the bubble.
However dont put too much energy into surviving the bubble, really its usally not that big a deal.
The thing is you need to take risks some times. Dont worry, no one can see you behind your screen

.

Razor_King · Jun 26, 2009

only_bridge said:
The thing is you need to take risks some times. Dont worry, no one can see you behind your screen .

Exactly the correct idea. If you don't take any risks at trying to steal blinds you will leak chips down and become in a week position. As you said, 30th, 40 left and top 27 get paid. You really would need to be trying to steal blinds because otherwise other players will use your weakness to their advantage. I normally try to play on that fact when i play. But obviously, when you are near the bubble take risks that are calculated

. Make sure you know how people are acting at the table etc. Good Luck

ihtennis · Jun 28, 2009

you have to bluff and try to steal blinds. You can keep folding, hoping that you are going to hit a big hand to cash.

pupkevicius · Jun 29, 2009

in the small blind or the button if everybody folds around to you and you have about 8 bb left you should push all in with a very wide range. even with something as bad as q7.

josh_dei8 · Jun 29, 2009

When it nears the bubble time, you have to watch closely to see who is playing tight to hit the money, and who is taking advantage of everyone else. Stay out of the pots whith the bully's unless you got a premium hand. Take advantage of the tight players with your raises, and steal a few pots

toogood2k · Jun 29, 2009

i think if ur on mid stack about... then you just need to wait when some shortstacker limps in and reraise allin him he could call even with lowpair or draw. thats bad idea to wait till all other players drops out becouse after that you can easely go out when blinds will suck out you.

ImolAyrton · Jun 29, 2009

Play tight and agressive.. cbet the hands you raised preflop.. and try to get in hands with the weaker players

Tom1559 · Jun 29, 2009

It is difficult situation and a lot depends on how much you want to just cash as opposed to getting into the better money. It also depends on your position in the hand and the other players. However I would say you have to be aggressive from mid to late position with any decent hand.

on the bubble

coolnout

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Tublecain

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MainEventOrBust

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coolnout

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Tublecain

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coolnout

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Kuberr

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MainEventOrBust

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coolnout

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Tom1559

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Tublecain

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only_bridge

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Razor_King

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ihtennis

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pupkevicius

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josh_dei8

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toogood2k

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ImolAyrton

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Tom1559

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