Blinds vs Ante

Sorry another noob question.

I understand Blinds (big/small) often exist at the start of tournaments and then Antes are sometimes brought in later. But do the Blinds still stay in operation after the Antes are introduced later or do the Antes replace the Blinds?

Thanks

mojorising said:

Sorry another noob question.

I understand Blinds (big/small) often exist at the start of tournaments and then Antes are sometimes brought in later. But do the Blinds still stay in operation after the Antes are introduced later or do the Antes replace the Blinds?

Thanks

Click to expand...

The blinds stay in place and the antes are added. The antes are there to speed up the tournament and create additional pressure.

So say you are playing a tournament and the blinds are 200/400 and the ante is 50
If you are at a 9 seater a round (9 hands) is costing you 9x50 = 450 chips in antes and 600 in blinds.

Also understand that if you are figuring out how much to bet preflop, you need to add your antes sum to the pot. So in the above situation SB posts 200 BB posts 400 and antes are 450, so pot is 1050 before it even gets to you. So you don't really want to be raising 3x BB because that would mean you reraise to 1200. Now the pot is 2250, so any caller is almost getting 2 to 1 pot odds to call.

So in a cash game there are no antes, but in a tournament there are (normally at some stage)

mojorising said:

Sorry another noob question.

I understand Blinds (big/small) often exist at the start of tournaments and then Antes are sometimes brought in later. But do the Blinds still stay in operation after the Antes are introduced later or do the Antes replace the Blinds?

Thanks

Click to expand...

The blinds stay in place and the antes are added. The antes are there to speed up the tournament and create additional pressure.

So say you are playing a tournament and the blinds are 200/400 and the ante is 50
If you are at a 9 seater a round (9 hands) is costing you 9x50 = 450 chips in antes and 600 in blinds.

Also understand that if you are figuring out how much to bet preflop, you need to add your antes sum to the pot. So in the above situation SB posts 200 BB posts 400 and antes are 450, so pot is 1050 before it even gets to you. So you don't really want to be raising 3x BB because that would mean you reraise to 1200. Now the pot is 2250, so any caller is almost getting 2 to 1 pot odds to call. You need to be raising to about 3150 with the antes in place.

^All understood now, thanks for that.

When I grew up we played 3 card brag. Very primitive relation to poker. There were no blinds. Only antes. It was simpler because every player who gets dealt a hand posts the ante so everybody has a stake.

What is the purpose of the blinds system?

Would antes not be simpler?

Blinds mean the stake is heavily skewed. Some players are invested and others aren't.

If blinds were replaced by antes then everybody is invested in every hand so then it makes folding more of a decision for everybody so in some ways it makes the game more interesting?

Also, if anybody wants to leave the table for a break the blinds system gets a bit complicated whereas the ante system is easy.

Just my initial thoughts as a noob. I stand to be corrected on the wisdom of the blinds system.

There are some tournaments on pokerstars with no blinds, only antes.

always gonna be blinds, just antes after a certain length of time

If blinds were scrapped and antes were raised so that they are the same as the small blind (half the minimum bet) then there would be much large pot odds on making the minimum bet and everyone would be invested so more people would stay in the hand. Seems like it would be interesting.

What do people think is good about the blinds system?

This is the most noobish question in my poker career

Other forum participants have already answered this as well as possible, but I suggest you play the most micro-ish stakes possible. Seriously.

mojorising said:

What is the purpose of the blinds system?

Would antes not be simpler?

Blinds mean the stake is heavily skewed. Some players are invested and others aren't.

Click to expand...

You are correct that the blind system makes some people more invested than other people, that is the point. Position is a huge factor when it comes to which hands are playable and which ones are not. The worse your position, the fewer hands you can play. The blinds incentivize the players with the worst position.

Thanks Vinnie. Yes, I guess the position dis-advantage for players 1 and 2 makes the blinds system make more sense.

There are tournaments out there that do not have antes. This really helps me out alot when i am close to the bubble and cannot last another loop.

I think the ante system would be a better replacement for the blinds system in poker.

Position is a factor in the game but it evens out since the button rotates. It just means your choice of starting hands has to take in your position. You have to reduce your range gradually as the button approaches and you lose position.

Antes are simpler. They are fairer. Leaving the table doesn't cause a headache.

Even if the blinds are supposed to somehow incentivise players out of position they are the wrong way round. The big blind should be next to the button and the small blind next to the big blind since the worst position is next to the button so the maximum incentive to bet should be applied to the 1st player, not the second.

Players with no blinds are free to muck their hands at no cost. So they muck more starting hands (up to 80% at no cost at a 10 player table) so the game takes longer. Antes would speed it up by incentivising more players to stay in more hands. Everybody will have to widen their opening range. So winning and losing will be accelerated.

I suspect that the blinds system may have been designed in hurry and without much thought.

The system was not designed in a hurry or without much thought, even if you don't agree with it or fully understand it. Folding is free, even when you are in the blinds. It doesn't cost you anything. It is just as free to fold the big blind as it is to fold UTG. What you do have, in the BB, is a discount on playing the hand. It is cheaper for you to call, than for anyone else at the table. In fact, if people have limped, you might even get to play for free.

It makes me wonder how you would feel about my normal home-game structure. There's a single blind (say 5c because usually we're playing with the children) and a button ante that's the same size as the big blind. So, there are two people who are forced to put money into the pot, but one of them has a discount on future play and the other doesn't. It's really simple and it speeds things up. It also creates a fun dynamic.

It also helps to remember that the blind system was developed when limit poker was the standard way of playing. It still works just fine for Pot-limit, No-limit, or Spread-limit games. But, it really becomes obvious when you are playing limit hold'em. The discount in the blinds is HUGE. Against a CO raise, the BTN has to call 2xbb and the BB only has to call half as much. This makes it much easier to justify a call out of position.

The small blind is obviously the worst spot on the table, both in terms of reduced discount and position. But, that's an artifact of what "blinds" are. They represent blind bets. The idea is that the SB bet 1 unit and the BB min-raised to 2 units, before cards are dealt. It wouldn't make sense to have them reversed.

In the end, someone has to put money in before cards are dealt. The blind system makes it more fair for the players in the worst spots on the table, providing them a discount. On a 10 handed table of $1/$2, a 30c ante would put the same amount in, but then the dealer needs to check to make sure 10 people put the right amount in and the first two players after the button have to act first on every street and have no advantage. With the blinds, they get to act last pre-flop and they get a discount. In a full rotation, the cost for all the players is the same, but it makes for a much more interesting game dynamic when using blinds and not antes.

Yeah! it is important looking for the struture of tournament first, to know how it will be and make your strategy.

^^Hey Vinnie,

Yes that is an interesting way to look at it.

The blinds mean you get to see the hand for free (if everybody checks) or at a discount.

But if the 'discount' has come out of your own stack you are still paying the same as everybody else.

But the point about getting to act last pre-flop is a good one which I had not fully considered.

Also the point about the SB being a kind of bet which has been raised by the BB makes sense.

Thanks.

But the fact that the BB came out of your stack doesn't matter. You pay the same amount per round as you would if there was antes. You are going to pay that amount anyway. But, with blinds you get a discount on the hand where you do put the money in.

It helps to think of blinds as being averaged out over all the hands.