Big Slick missing the flop?

Okay, it's late in the tourney yet I still have quite a ways to go til the money. I get dealt Ace King of Spades and I'm in mid late position I have a fairly healthy stack (20,000 chips), and I raise it to 3 times the big blind. Everyone folds except for one player on my left who also has a similar stack just a bit smaller. Flop comes 2spades - 4 clubs - 4hearts I checked it, and my opponent checked it. Turn was an 8 of hearts. He made a small bet, which I called then Jack of diamonds on the river and again he makes a small bet which I call. He turns over 7 of spades, and 8 of clubs. What's the correct way to play this? I take it I'm playing too passive and should have opened with a fairly large bet?

Unless your opponent has a tendency of bluffing alot, I would have just folded to the river bet. I would have folded probably to the turn bet, but calling once...especially if it was a small bet, isn't that bad. Some might say you should have c-bet and you could have taken it down, but I would say if your opponent pays attention, he would know a c-bet was just a routine move, unless you've been caught trying to steal with low cards, cause normally if a relatively tight player c-bets a 244 board (or whatever it was) unless he has a pocket pair, he probably whiffed. AK is great if you hit, pretty much junk if you don't.

RichKo said:

Unless your opponent has a tendency of bluffing alot, I would have just folded to the river bet. I would have folded probably to the turn bet, but calling once...especially if it was a small bet, isn't that bad. Some might say you should have c-bet and you could have taken it down, but I would say if your opponent pays attention, he would know a c-bet was just a routine move, unless you've been caught trying to steal with low cards, cause normally if a relatively tight player c-bets a 244 board (or whatever it was) unless he has a pocket pair, he probably whiffed. AK is great if you hit, pretty much junk if you don't.

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Thanks for the reply. I guess I did play it okay then. Tho like you said I should have folded to the bet, but at the time I thought he was just making a bet at the pot. I definitely wonder about the continuation bet. I felt cuz I didn't make a continuation bet I was playing too passive. It can get ugly after that tho. I can't say how many times I've seen people lose with A-K after they missed the flop. If it hits should I bet it strong? Is it only smart to slowplay with sets, straights, etc? I had another situation I was wondering about. I raised again 3 times big blind had position, got one caller. My king hits and I checked it down and made a decent sized bet at the end. The board got scary on the turn and river. I'm just trying to figure out how to get the most out of my opponent when it does hit. He had called with AJ. Like when I do hit a set, I usually bet it strong and it scares everybody off. I'm trying to work on getting the most chips out of my opponents when I have the best hand. It's frustrating to not get paid off.

I would C-bet the flop. Even if your opponent suspects you missed the flop, they did too. If you did hit the flop or raised originally with a PP, how willing are they to try and catch up. In this case, with a 78, odds are they just let it go. In most cases you are going to pick up the pot with a good C-bet on this texture board. I would be hesitant to C-bet a connected flop or one with 2 cards T+ as these are cards that are more likely to match up with typical calling hands. Also you should have a feel for your opponents. Sometimes there are people that just dont want to believe you. You pretty much have to hit your hand to bet into these people.

thats a pretty good flop for your hand. i would bet 1/2 to 2/3 the pot right there. if the other guy has an over pair he most likely will let you know right there. if however you check the flop you really got to raise or fold the turn IMO. check/calling is not winning poker. for the most part if i raise preflop i cbet the flop. in this case i bet the flop and if my hand doesnt improve on the turn i'm done with it. if another spade pops out i may fire another bullet. not only does betting the flop give you a chance to win the pot right there. it may also get you a free card. if you had bet the flop and check the turn he may be wary of betting his 7's and check behind. remember bet/raise not check call. and theres no shame in folding either.

Slick is one of those premo hands I play aggressively whether hit or miss. I like to 3x bet it, and if anyone calls, then always continuation bet on flop for about 2/3 pot. If turn is a blank, then one more big bet. If he calls then check it down on river.

A K suited

I think on the flop I would have made a pot sized continuation bet. You have a good over pair and the nut flush draw. You got to be aggressive in those situations unless he is a calling station.

Raise to 4 or 5x the BB pre-flop. Assuming he still calls, then bet around 1/2 pot on the flop & he folds...

I would have folded to his bet on the turn. The flop did not hit any part of you.....Nothing there for you. FOld it and move on...wait for a better situation.

I have to agree with most of the others, a continuation bet on the flop and most likely he folds his hand. The flop didn't give him any draws and even tho he probably knows you missed the flop, he has to know you either have over cards or even a pocket pair.

Also, a bluff on the river jack possibly couldve taken the hand down, as he definitely was showing weakness if those "small bets" were min bets. Since there should be about 7.5 BBs in the pot on the flop, his min bet would be really small and he mightve been scared of pocket pairs like 9s or 10s.

I can not agree with folding to his min bet tho. It cost you very little to see another card for a decent pot. On the river if you have a decent read on the player folding might be easy, or depending on the player bluffing the river jack might take it down, but it depends. A continuation bet of about 2/3rds pot on the flop and most likely he folds before catching his 8 on the turn.

Thanks for all the help and great advice. I just hate getting into situations like this:

Seat 1: drsale90 (2,425).
Seat 2: Spanna43 (1,095), is sitting out.
Seat 3: coolnout (3,770).
Seat 4: jessava87 (6,790).
Seat 5: benfield (1,215), is sitting out.
Seat 6: johnno1961 (1,310), is sitting out.
Seat 7: carpediemph (3,510).
Seat 8: INDUCE (1,245), is sitting out.
Seat 9: Yastrebov (8,525).
johnno1961 posts the small blind of 30.
carpediemph posts the big blind of 60.
The button is in seat #5.
*** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to coolnout [As Kd].
INDUCE folds.
Yastrebov calls 60.
drsale90 folds.
Spanna43 folds.
coolnout raises to 350.
jessava87 folds.
benfield folds.
johnno1961 folds.
carpediemph has 15 seconds left to act.
carpediemph folds.
Yastrebov calls 290.
*** FLOP *** [9c 3d Jd].
Yastrebov checks.
coolnout bets 790.
Yastrebov calls 790.
*** TURN *** [9c 3d Jd] 2♣.
Yastrebov checks.
coolnout checks.
*** RIVER *** [9c 3d Jd 2c] 4♦.
Yastrebov bets 2,370.
coolnout has 15 seconds left to act.
coolnout has requested TIME.
coolnout raises to 2,630, and is all in.
Yastrebov calls 260.
*** SHOW DOWN *** coolnout shows [As Kd] Ace King high
Yastrebov mucks.
coolnout wins the pot (7,630) with Ace King high.
*** SUMMARY *** Total pot 7,630 | Rake 0.
Board: [9c 3d Jd 2c 4d].
Seat 1: drsale90 didn't bet (folded).
Seat 2: Spanna43 didn't bet (folded).
Seat 3: coolnout showed [As Kd] and won (7,630) with Ace King high.
Seat 4: jessava87 didn't bet (folded).
Seat 5: benfield (button) didn't bet (folded).
Seat 6: johnno1961 (small blind) folded before the Flop.
Seat 7: carpediemph (big blind) folded before the Flop.
Seat 8: INDUCE didn't bet (folded).
Seat 9: Yastrebov mucked [Td Kc] - King Jack high.

I actually just started reading Harrington on Holdem, and I put him on a king rag simply defending blinds. I had already commited most of my chips to the pot so the big bet on the river threw me off. I thought about it for a second and shoved. Was this a good play?

coolnout said:

Okay, it's late in the tourney yet I still have quite a ways to go til the money. I get dealt Ace King of Spades and I'm in mid late position I have a fairly healthy stack (20,000 chips), and I raise it to 3 times the big blind. Everyone folds except for one player on my left who also has a similar stack just a bit smaller. Flop comes 2spades - 4 clubs - 4hearts I checked it, and my opponent checked it. Turn was an 8 of hearts. He made a small bet, which I called then Jack of diamonds on the river and again he makes a small bet which I call. He turns over 7 of spades, and 8 of clubs. What's the correct way to play this? I take it I'm playing too passive and should have opened with a fairly large bet?

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The only thing you may have done differently is to raise him on the river. I would only advocate said raise if you truly feel he was completely bluffing with air, or he had what he had (either the 2 or the 8). However, unless it's a sizeable raise, I doubt anyone with a pair is going to fold on the river because you didn't C-Bet the flop. All depends on your risk averseness I guess.

suit2please said:

I have to agree with most of the others, a continuation bet on the flop and most likely he folds his hand. The flop didn't give him any draws and even tho he probably knows you missed the flop, he has to know you either have over cards or even a pocket pair.

Also, a bluff on the river jack possibly couldve taken the hand down, as he definitely was showing weakness if those "small bets" were min bets. Since there should be about 7.5 BBs in the pot on the flop, his min bet would be really small and he mightve been scared of pocket pairs like 9s or 10s.

I can not agree with folding to his min bet tho. It cost you very little to see another card for a decent pot. On the river if you have a decent read on the player folding might be easy, or depending on the player bluffing the river jack might take it down, but it depends. A continuation bet of about 2/3rds pot on the flop and most likely he folds before catching his 8 on the turn.

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^^^ MY apologies did not read this post before responding, he hit the bet on the jack on the river on the head before I did. Once again my bad was not attempting to steal your post

Theblueduce said:

I would have folded to his bet on the turn. The flop did not hit any part of you.....Nothing there for you. FOld it and move on...wait for a better situation.

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^^^^ this is pretty standard. I think your over analyzing it. Bet him on the flop next time and see where u are. Dont let him take position away from u by betting on the turn next time.. U raised preflop so semi bluff him and feel him out.

If u dont have the confidence then go with the reply i quoted in the response

you absolutely make a continuation bet with that flop, people overlook the fact that ace high with a king kicker is a very strong hand in that position. you get cold called if they have a weak over pair and raised with a big pair. either way, you need to get as much information right away.

with a flop like that there is a pretty good chance you are ahead unless villian has pocket 9s or 10 s or somesuch...anything better JJ QQ KK he probably reraises you preflop...in this case you were ahead which is why you need to make a 3/4 pot size bet to see where you at or give you the chance to win the hand outright..via a fold...if he calls...sure, it may be time to slow down if you miss the turn, that all depends on the opponent and what you know about him...but i always say big slick missed on the flop is just A high with a king kicker

gl to you
wooter

Depends a lot on your opponent!
Is he a good player?
Is he bluffing a lot or is he tight.
What is your image at the table, etc...
You could attack by making c-bets down to the river or you could play it tight like you did.
But you saw that he made a bad call and hit a pair because you did not c- bet, so......