Beyond Tells?

Z

Zer0-0uts

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Has anyone done the Beyond tells work shop online by Blake? I signed up for the first week free deal, and I do not know what I think of what I have seen from it so far. I am curious if it is worth the price of the full course. If you have paid for the course did you think it was worth it? What did you learn? Has your game improved from the course? Thank you for quality replies.
:rock:Zer0:rock:
 
Shady Slim

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Zer0-0uts said:
Has anyone done the Beyond Tells work shop online by Blake?
Click to expand...

Not until you mentioned it. Checked on them, and there appears to be some serious work they put into it. Kind of spooky too.

They analyze video footage with cameras framed on live players (up to 10 cameras). Record every twitch, blink, shrug, etc. Run all that thru a super computer that runs analysis.

Some of the research they do:

  • Marking, coding, and analyzing over 600,000 blinks at the table.
  • Conducting qualitative and quantitative analysis on over 25,000+ card checks at the table.
  • Creating a database to store and analyze contextual game elements with behavior. It’s basically a Pokertracker for behavior. It’s stored in POSTGRES and analyzed using mainly R.
  • Pioneering several methods for tagging, recording, and analyzing the behaviors of poker players.
  • Watched and compared, more 3bets, river shoves, donk bets then you could possibly imagine.
  • Analyzing every single subtle change in the human face at the poker table.
 
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Beyond Tells

Right, but I am hoping to find someone on Cards Chat who has completed the course and can speak for its merit. It all sounds good, but is the information actually accurate, and does it actually translate into real profit at the tables?

:evil:Zer0:evil:
 
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Aint no one got nothing?
:evil:Zer0:evil:
 
Jillychemung

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Did you take a look at CC member Scourrge's vlog on it?
 
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I did not. I did not even know such a thing was around. Thank you so much for digging this up for me.

:evil:Zer0:evil:
 
Matt Vaughan

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Hi guys, I'm Matt Vaughan, and I actually participated in a lot of the work that went into Beyond Tells, so hopefully I can offer a useful perspective here.

To answer the primary question of "is it worth it" - yes.

Obviously I would say this since I worked on the product myself, but I also purchased the original Beyond Tells 1.0 which was released in 2014 and was blown away. And this is not a "revamp." This is a 100% new product that is about 10x more robust and more practical than the BT 1.0 course.

I would say if you felt you didn't learn ANYthing from the free first week, that you should rewatch it. It's not meant to make you a killer in tells - it's meant to the lay the foundation, but there should still be stuff in there for you to think about and digest. It's more so meant to show you the power of tells at the table and start to build out a foundation than teach you "quick tips and tricks" in a week - that's why the course is twelve weeks instead of one. You won't be able to start practically applying the stuff until you are in weeks 2, 3, 4, and beyond.

This post is not an advertisement - I just want to be clear that I personally would gladly pay the money for access to the course myself again. And having actually helped CREATE the course, I can say that I'm completely happy with how it has turned out, and with what I think it can do for live poker players who are committed to putting in the work.

But again, to be clear... you need to PUT IN THE WORK. This is not a 2 weekend commitment and this is not the kind of tells advice you are used to where "his eyelids fluttered when he bet so he is strong." This is a 12-week course with hundreds of videos, practice tests, reinforcement material, and walkthroughs. And you will most likely be revisiting the material for months and months after as you absorb and implement new stuff into your game.
If you play online, don't buy the course. If you're not gonna put in the work, don't buy the course. If you don't like money, don't buy the course. (Sorry, I had to lol.)

I'll be active in this thread if there are any specific questions that people would like answered as well, so let me know! (Also shout out to Jilly for letting me know this thread existed so I could hop in.)
 
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$999.99

Dude is asking $999 for the complete course. The only thing I have to say about this is, if you can afford to pay $999 for an online course to improve your game you probably do not need to take the course.
 
Shady Slim

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Zer0-0uts said:
Dude is asking $999 for the complete course. The only thing I have to say about this is, if you can afford to pay $999 for an online course to improve your game you probably do not need to take the course.
Click to expand...

Good point. You can put this in your bankroll management plan too. Once you have worked your way up to $2500/5000 cash games, maybe throw a chip in for a little extra edge.


I find the course intriguing. I am sure there is some valuable things to learn about human behavior. Kind of liked that series Lie To Me with Tim Roth too, and see a lot of merit to this approach.
 
Matt Vaughan

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Zer0-0uts said:
Dude is asking $999 for the complete course. The only thing I have to say about this is, if you can afford to pay $999 for an online course to improve your game you probably do not need to take the course.
Click to expand...

It's a course for live tells, so if you're not playing 1/2 live or higher (but more likely 2/5 and above), then the course doesn't apply to you anyway. If you are playing 1/2 live or higher seriously, you should have > 5k in your bankroll and can definitely afford the hit, and if you don't, then you need more basic work on your game first, because it means you probably don't have the fundamentals down enough to be beating low stakes live at a small rate.

Let's say you are making $30/hour at 2/5, and within 6 months, this course adds $10/hour to your winrate, so you make $40/hour. Within 100 hours of playing, you've recouped the money from buying the course. For any serious player, they are usually playing 20-25 hours per week, so they'll hit that 100 hours before they are even 2 months out from finishing the course. So in 8 months they've freerolled the course. 18 months down the line, they have made $10,000 more than what they would otherwise have made. In less than 2 years. Dunno about you but I would love a > $5k annual raise from my hobby! :D

And frankly, the information has the potential to add a lot more to your win rate than that. So again, I can't convince you it's worth it, but I always find it odd when people scoff at training product costs - we are talking 5 buyins or less for any low stakes NLHE player, in exchange for a big increase in their lifetime earning potential. If you don't think the product itself is worth anything, ok. If the product was like $10k, then ok. But come on. $1k is well within the reach of serious grinders who play live. (And no it definitely doesn't require you play 2.5k/5k stakes haha ;) )
 
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Recreational Player

That is all fine and well, but I am a recreational player. I play 1-2. I am lucky if I have the time to sit down at a live table even 1x a week. $999 is not even something I can consider. I would love to improve my game by mastering tells. I am not able to pay $999 at this point in my life as a recreational player.
 
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Interesting looks good

Im not familiar with the this but as an aspiring live tournament player I already know that all the top players will use this skill in their arsenal.
So I’ll be checking this out in full.

Good luck at the tables
 
Matt Vaughan

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Zer0-0uts said:
That is all fine and well, but I am a recreational player. I play 1-2. I am lucky if I have the time to sit down at a live table even 1x a week. $999 is not even something I can consider. I would love to improve my game by mastering tells. I am not able to pay $999 at this point in my life as a recreational player.
Click to expand...


Sure - and that's where you gotta differentiate between "what's right for me" and "what is reasonable." It's one thing to say "this is not the right course for me" - it's something else to say "this course isn't right for anyone."

At the end of the day, most recreational players don't do a lot of study, and I agree that it probably wouldn't be the right call to spend $1,000 on a poker course (unless they just really enjoy learning/studying poker).
 
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Question about Beyond Tells

Hey Matt, I was looking at Beyond Tells. What are the advantages of the Premium vs Basic? I mean, I can see that you get more with Premium, but how would you go about advising someone which package they should invest in?
Thanks.

Scourrge said:
Hi guys, I'm Matt Vaughan, and I actually participated in a lot of the work that went into Beyond Tells, so hopefully I can offer a useful perspective here.

To answer the primary question of "is it worth it" - yes.

Obviously I would say this since I worked on the product myself, but I also purchased the original Beyond Tells 1.0 which was released in 2014 and was blown away. And this is not a "revamp." This is a 100% new product that is about 10x more robust and more practical than the BT 1.0 course.

I would say if you felt you didn't learn ANYthing from the free first week, that you should rewatch it. It's not meant to make you a killer in tells - it's meant to the lay the foundation, but there should still be stuff in there for you to think about and digest. It's more so meant to show you the power of tells at the table and start to build out a foundation than teach you "quick tips and tricks" in a week - that's why the course is twelve weeks instead of one. You won't be able to start practically applying the stuff until you are in weeks 2, 3, 4, and beyond.

This post is not an advertisement - I just want to be clear that I personally would gladly pay the money for access to the course myself again. And having actually helped CREATE the course, I can say that I'm completely happy with how it has turned out, and with what I think it can do for live poker players who are committed to putting in the work.

But again, to be clear... you need to PUT IN THE WORK. This is not a 2 weekend commitment and this is not the kind of tells advice you are used to where "his eyelids fluttered when he bet so he is strong." This is a 12-week course with hundreds of videos, practice tests, reinforcement material, and walkthroughs. And you will most likely be revisiting the material for months and months after as you absorb and implement new stuff into your game.
If you play online, don't buy the course. If you're not gonna put in the work, don't buy the course. If you don't like money, don't buy the course. (Sorry, I had to lol.)

I'll be active in this thread if there are any specific questions that people would like answered as well, so let me know! (Also shout out to Jilly for letting me know this thread existed so I could hop in.)
Click to expand...
 
Matt Vaughan

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Honestly, with almost all of our products... get the premium. We used to do a lot of multi-tier pricing which is effectively a marketing tool to help anchor the best value opportunity.

I haven't specifically looked at those in a while to recall what the differences are, but premium is always a MUCH higher value with us. If you screenshot and show what the options are listed as now I can give you a little more in-depth feedback.
 
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