Is being in a position always good ?

Fahrenheit451

Fahrenheit451

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Hi !

I think I discovered a case when being in a position are not good.
I play MTT and today I tried this little trick.
Better than stealing blinds.

When blinds raise and everyone are cautious, it happens frequently that no one raises or limps.
In such cases when in SB, I limped with every shit cards. When villain raised, I folded, but it was rear. He keeps checking all the time.
On flop, 9 cases out of 10 no one gets anything.
I simply raised 1 BB regardless of flop.
If villain raises - I folded, but mostly he folded.

Is there some antidote against this ?
I used AI when in BB and SB limps in, if I had decent pocket cards, but that is kind of risky.
 
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WizardRubic

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I've done this a few times in the smaller stakes with a slight variation. I minraise instead and try to pick it up preflop. The technique only works as long as the opponent doesn't adjust. The opponent could adjust by raising lighter preflop or on the flop.

At the small stakes, you should be fine. Most small stake players won't adjust and you'll be able to just sit there and steal the blinds or take it down on the flop.

Keep in mind, any two cards will hit the flop with a pair or better about 1/3 times (which is why I try to steal it preflop with a minraise).
 
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WiZZiM

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yep, it's called the limp n go. the antidote is to either raise preflop small, or to check and raise a ton of dry flops. easy peasy.
 
vinylspiros

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in my opinion, this play is totally weak and pointless. Either jam fold or raise. depending on ur stack size.

when u limp, you let the other guy hit the board with his 4J off and then what?
 
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Yes I've seen it a few times and it does make you wonder which is the best position at these times.

Being in a position to make a bet that is difficult for others following to call or raise without a hand certainly has benefits.

And having to act after a 'serial better' whilst card dead is very difficult.

However this dynamic doesn't occur very often, the most common time is with big blinds and sit outs or nits avoiding bubbles.
HU techniques can be useful in these situations.
 
juanmapoker1

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at first I'm aggressive three bet all the time ..
say you all start as cautious and nobody plays the first hands haha
 
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psy0nyd3

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Its a weak play and not a good idea for the reason Vinilspyros mentioned. Also the reason it is beneficial to have position on your opponent is that you get to have more information before you make your play. Information is always a good thing in poker. Sometimes in tournaments being UTG is a strong position because you can make a steal at the pot before anyone else has a chance. Of course it is risky but when people are playing tight approaching the bubble it can be useful.

Limping is generally NEVER a good idea.
 
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SwiftHax

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in my opinion, this play is totally weak and pointless. Either jam fold or raise. depending on ur stack size.

when u limp, you let the other guy hit the board with his 4J off and then what?
Exactly my thoughts.

I do know where you can use this effectively though. If there's a overly-aggro player on your left who will raise ATC if you limp in, even better if has a shorter stack compared to yours. Then I can 3-bet shove my stack and he'll have to call because he's priced in.

Then again those are very rare situations and you should never limp to play OOP post flop. Your opponent gets to see a free flop in position and you have no idea what range of hands he might be holding. Do you see how stupid that sounds?
 
S3mper

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My range opens up significantly when SB open limps in, I'm playing in position against a player who just showed extreme weakness by limping in and when I don't raise thanks for letting me see the flop when I would of folded to a raise

Also when I'm on the SB and raise I usually raise a little more then my standard raise to price villain out. Which can be tricky because if he does come along you are now playing OOP with a bigger pot (my raise deviation isn't so big the pot is humongous but still lol)

Aggression wins pots, you are going to get burned in the long run by giving up so many SB+1+1 this play would only be useful on weaker players and against them there is no need for it.

However being OOP could be useful if you donk bet you get first chance at bluffing at the pot.. Frustrating when I flop nothing and villain donk bets into me now I have to float or raise or fold to a donk bet gahhh
 
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Faust

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in my opinion, this play is totally weak and pointless. Either jam fold or raise. depending on ur stack size.

when u limp, you let the other guy hit the board with his 4J off and then what?

I agree with you, this play is totally weak and pointless, there are just two ways. I must add that having spotted a tendency it may be benefitial to bluff, raising being totally secure of your bet. Once flop comes you raise again, and wait to see how the "villains" react, if someone re-raises simply you fold because he probably has something, if something out of normal comes in flop you simply check and wait for reactions. If they call your raise, then at turn you have the chance of raising even more (depending on your stack and the opponents you have) or simply checking (which is not recommended because players will note your weakness). And something crucial, at every decision you make control the time you take to do it, if players are watching how you play they will take special attention to it.
 
aa88wildbill

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For the most part, 'position play' only comes into account, after the flop.
 
S3mper

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For the most part, 'position play' only comes into account, after the flop.

I disagree, I'm more likely to raise in position pre flop and play a wider range of hands and squeeze more often in later spots
 
aa88wildbill

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I disagree, I'm more likely to raise in position pre flop and play a wider range of hands and squeeze more often in later spots

I said "for the most part" not all. Most preflop play is about luck not skill. If the guy has a better hand, or a bluff he's going to call you or reraise. Preflop play is about the type of player you're playing against, and has little to do with position.
 
S3mper

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I said "for the most part" not all. Most preflop play is about luck not skill. If the guy has a better hand, or a bluff he's going to call you or reraise. Preflop play is about the type of player you're playing against, and has little to do with position.

I still disagree, because where you are pre flop will determine where you are post flop therefore preflop your position should factor in the determination of what your going to do pre flop. I also think pre flop has skill and not luck if you are playing only premium hands maybe little more luck based
 
vinylspiros

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I said "for the most part" not all. Most preflop play is about luck not skill. If the guy has a better hand, or a bluff he's going to call you or reraise. Preflop play is about the type of player you're playing against, and has little to do with position.


i dont know how true this is. In cash games, MAYBE, but in tournies where stacks are shallower preflop play is VERY position dependant. If you 3 bet someone and he has raised kind of light, he has to make a decision pre-flop as to whether he is going to flat or jam because he knows that if he flats, he will 99% of the time have to face a cbet on basically every possible flop . So i believe that position is definitely important preflop because it dictates what will happen postflop and what you will have to be faced with,,,and from where.
 
aa88wildbill

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i dont know how true this is. In cash games, MAYBE, but in tournies where stacks are shallower preflop play is VERY position dependant. If you 3 bet someone and he has raised kind of light, he has to make a decision pre-flop as to whether he is going to flat or jam because he knows that if he flats, he will 99% of the time have to face a cbet on basically every possible flop . So i believe that position is definitely important preflop because it dictates what will happen postflop and what you will have to be faced with,,,and from where.

If the has any kind hand of worth playing, and his stack is shallow, he's going to shove. If the guy has a hand it isn't going to matter what position you're in.
 
aa88wildbill

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I'm not saying position is an important, but there is a lot of other things that is more important than your position. Such as, the reed of the players, probabilities, betting patterns, or far more important than what position you're in.
 
doncaster

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position is very important in MTT depending on the time of the tournament.
In the beginning,middle or later stages as the stacks are different .
A small stack in early position may shove with any 2 cards or a bully with a large stack may make a huge raise in late position.
No two identical situations occur.You must decide what you will do depending on villain,his stack,your stack,early position,late position....whether you in the money or on bubble....even on the prize payout .
If villain raises every hand will also determine your decision as you may think he can't possibly have a hand every time and you may be on tilt and just call him with any 2 cards.
I say "patience"let someone else risk their stack against an aggressive villain
 
Reptar7

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This works good in D or Ns when the blinds get high and you have a mid-big stack. Having said that, most people know they should adjust and do so.
 
tothbopo

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As long as it works and pays well is proberbly nice to do.

But keep variance its important.
 
dj11

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It is ok only in low buy-in games/tourneys. You will get slaughtered as you move up the buy-in scale if you continue doing that.

And keep in mind that it is only ok if the table lets you do it, which only happens about 40% of the time (experienced based gut guess).

It is a form known as small ball. That is obviously not small ball in a nutshell, but it is part of the small ball routine...see a lot of cheap pots, beef up your post flop game.
 
rifflemao

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You will get slaughtered as you move up the buy-in scale if you continue doing that.

^this

Perfectly fine if the BB is short and you were going to call off with ATC anyway, but if you show a pattern of limp\folding in general, you'll be exploitable.

But if it works against a particular player, then do it until it stops working.
 
Staneff

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I dont think being in position fre-flop is the same as being in position after the flop. If you are in late position after the flop and have the opportunity to see how all other players react to the flop your read on them and your potential to steal the pot are alot bigger.
 
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If You will do this 3 or more times in a row opp. won't respect your raise
and reraise you on safety board all in each time
 
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