Beginner mistakes - bluffing

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DrSparky

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Hi all,

As a beginner I've noticed that one of my major leaks is that I think people are bluffing more than they actually are - I look at their play and I think either, "That would be a great place to bluff" or "He can't have his normal range again here..."

I primarily play a weekly STT live "pub game" which is effectively a turbo structure (Blinds up every 15 mins) and very soon I'm hoping to get involved online with some 2NL cash and low stakes STTs (To find which I'm best at and develop my skills/experience)

I received, and read, a lot of advice on CC stating that at the lower stakes bluffing is much less frequent, and you should never try to bluff fish or calling stations as you're going to get called far too often...


My question(s) for you all are:

1) At what stakes have you found that bluffing becomes much akin to what you read in poker books?

2) In my last STT game I probably played for 3 hours (100-150 hands?) and played around 2 pure "I have nothing and am playing my position bluffs" and perhaps 10 semi-bluffs "I have something which may be the second best hand but I think I can get you to fold since I have position on you and you have demonstrated weakness" - does this sound about right? (I appreciate that any play is situation dependent, but am I miles away from sensible here?)

3) A phrase I heard from a professional poker player (On YouTube) was "If you're not getting caught bluffing, you're probably not bluffing enough" - do you agree with this, and at what stakes is kind of sentiment accurate?

4) When you're playing against a known and self-confessed fish and you have history with them that confirms that, when they act is it more correct to think "I should give him a wider range here than most players" or "There's a good chance he's bluffing here..." (Again I appreciate this is person/situational dependent, but any general sentiments are very welcome)


Thanks in advance for any replies, Sparky
 
pokerbot123

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I suffer from bluffing also. I lose more from bluffing than anything else lol
 
micromachine

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1) Bluffing can work at any stake really, you just need to pick to right spots and the right opponents. There are more calling station fish at the lower levels so you will have less opportunities to bluff effectively, but you find all player types at all levels so there are players who can fold even at 2nl. Against thinking players it's important to make your bluff believable, at 25nl I got caught bluffing when someone picked up on subtle bet sizing tells that made him think I didn't have the range I was trying to represent.

2) No idea if that's a lot really, your 2 pure bluffs may have been shoves from late position once the blinds got high and everyone is bluffing like mad then.

3) Yeah that's true it's good to get caught bluffing sometimes otherwise it's hard to get value from your monsters. Not sure what stake this is accurate at but it's only going to be beneficial to you if your opponents are paying attention. At 5nl some of the players are certainly paying attention to what you're doing.

4) There are different kinds of fish, some will try and bluff a lot, most will have wide ranges.
 
ScottieDuncan

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I find that bluffing comes more in the freerolls. The higher the stakes the less bluffing, I think.
 
steveiam

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Bluffing only works if you know an opponent can fold a good hand.
 
lcid86

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Know the table. If they aren't folding, you can't bluff.
 
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Blue_Fossil

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There are really no hard and fast rules on bluffing.

One thing I notice at the lower stakes (where I play most of the time) is that a lot of players can't be bluffed off their top or 2nd pair, no matter what cards are on the table. So keep that in mind.

If you are never caught bluffing, you aren't doing it enough. Don't be afraid to get caught bluffing - just don't go overboard.
 
BluffyouBAD

BluffyouBAD

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This stupid post limit thing has stopped me from responding but ill touch on it now.

1) Let a player prove he understands the game before you give him credit at any stakes. As it says in Let There Be Range, "Treat him like a donk until he proves he's not a donk."

2) There isn't a set number of bluffs you need to have in order to be a good player. It is more important to pick your bluff spots and the guys you try to bluff correctly.

Semi-bluffing is always great with a straight draw, flush draw and a mid pair with an overcard. Playing those strongly can be profitable if done correctly. Don't semi bluff with mid cards hoping to hit two pair or anything like that.

3) You don't need to get caught bluffing for it to help make your big hands profitable. Just simply show a bluff or two if your hands aren't getting any action. This will have same affect minus the losses from being caught

4) fish definitely have a wider range of hands and the more important thing IMO is knowing not to bluff fish who will call you down with mid pair. Don't try and bluff somebody who refuses to fold. IT becomes very unprofitable. if you have a hand just keep value betting them. They will not make heroic folds so don't try to make moves on them!!
 
aero87

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I find bluffing effective on boards where you could either be way ahead or way behind. Flops like J 7 7. Unless someone has a J, 7 or overpair, usually the aggressor takes it down.
 
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Flsnookman

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You can't bluff bad players as they aren't paying attention to the board. I like to get caught bluffing early or show a bluff so that I can get called later but again, against a player who isn't paying attention this is an exercise in futility. Also, in order to bluff you need to play the board, like when a possible straight or flush is out there or when the board pairs etc. Hope this helps good luck.
 
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Necreto

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The art of bluffing has a huge potential to help you in certain situations. But, before bluffing, it's necessary to know very well the players you are playing against. Is this one more tight or loose? Is he agressive or passive? There are some questions you should always have been asking yourself.

And... of course, you have to analyze well the board and think about whether the bluff is a good choise or not. Be careful with draws before bluff. Good luck!
 
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feffy

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bluff - a tricky thing, somewhere he brings a huge amount, somewhere ends in failure, I think there konretno ce depends on the players at the table, and how well you have studied them, the situation in which they take off the cards, which do not. to bluff - you need to watch
 
vinylspiros

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something,i would like to add on this topic about bluffing:

Sometimes our bluffs are bigger than they are supposed to be. when we are bluffing there are two types of bluffs:

1-the type where we are bluffing with nothing to try to get our opponent off of nothing and then there is bluff number 2

2-this is the type of bluff that we make although we are pretty sure our opponent has something like top pair maybe, and the board suddenly got scarry for villain and favore's the line we took.

For example if a villain raises with AK of spades and flop comes 36A(with 2 hearts out there) and he makes a continuation bet on the flop, and we think and call. then on the turn he barrels again,and we think about it and we call(even with air,but i dont advise this kind of play to anyone,were assuming we have some draws or outs here). Now if river hits another heart and villain makes a block bet type or even checks. this is a GOOD SPOT TO either shove or click it back in order to steal.

Now where im going with this is that the second situation might require a bigger betting size to get villain off his made hand on a scarry board, where in the first example all you need to do is bet something like 33% of the pot and take it down in most cases.

Where im going with this is that i believe people tend to bluff with bigger bet sizes than required to get the job done IMO and therefor are losing more money than necessary.
 
micromachine

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I see villains using terrible bet sizing for their bluffs at 5nl, they are either too small and fail to push me off my one pair hands or they are way too big and l smell bs. To bluff effectively you have to bet size as you would if you actually had the hand you are trying to represent, like you want max value but not folds.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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I see villains using terrible bet sizing for their bluffs at 5nl, they are either too small and fail to push me off my one pair hands or they are way too big and l smell bs. To bluff effectively you have to bet size as you would if you actually had the hand you are trying to represent, like you want max value but not folds.
i hear you micro. same here. just pretend you had it and make the perfect value bet like you want a call. 55-60% of pot is great. or even 45% depending on the pot size.
 
Poker Orifice

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Members responding in thread, keep in mind that OP is stating they are playing STT (aka Single Table Tournament).

I'd recommend you google search 'The Mistakes LowBuyin SNG players are making the most' by Jennifear. I think you'll be able to find alot of useful stuff there.. ie. "Not believing opponents might have a hand" (< is one of the points in the article).

SNG Strategy is far far different than playing a typical cash game. A BIG mistake ALOT of newer players make is that they don't make the huge adjustments necessary. Maybe try searching out a SNG Strategy guide too.
Another thing to try is >> try watching some SNG's online that are at higher buyins than you'd be playing (ie. if you play $2 sng, try watching the $10 or $20 buyins).

There's a couple of good SNG books available too...
Collin Moshmann's SNG Strategy
or
Secrets of Sit'n'gos by Phil Shaw
Read one (or both) of these & I guarantee your game will improve IMMENSELY (& you'll be crushing your local live STT on a regular basis).
 
aa88wildbill

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Bluffing is all about, knowing what your opponent is going to do. If you do not know you are flying blind, and no amount of math, or strategy will help you.
 
M

marcumx

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as for the getting caught bluffing, i always try to get caught at least once when the blinds are low. Example: just yesterday, in a SNG, everyone checked it down to the river and the blinds were only 30..so i threw out a 30 bet and was called by one guy and was called a donk for it. Ok then. i talked some smack back, and several hands later i had a pocket pair and flopped a full house right off the bat. was heads up with this guy. i checked, he bet something ridiculous i called. check check. and then i threw out the min bet as if i was going to try and steal again and he went all in..i called and knocked him out. pay attn to how someone plays. you can't bluff a guy who's going to call even with nothing and pick your spots to do it and make sure you can afford it. sometimes i can go all in when a flush draw is showing and will take the pot, however sometimes a person will have a low flush and call and then i'm left getting busted out. it's all about experimenting. i'm just starting out online and have been playing diff styles in the cheap SNG's figuring out what best works for me.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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as for the getting caught bluffing, i always try to get caught at least once when the blinds are low. Example: just yesterday, in a SNG, everyone checked it down to the river and the blinds were only 30..so i threw out a 30 bet and was called by one guy and was called a donk for it. Ok then. i talked some smack back, and several hands later i had a pocket pair and flopped a full house right off the bat. was heads up with this guy. i checked, he bet something ridiculous i called. check check. and then i threw out the min bet as if i was going to try and steal again and he went all in..i called and knocked him out. pay attn to how someone plays. you can't bluff a guy who's going to call even with nothing and pick your spots to do it and make sure you can afford it. sometimes i can go all in when a flush draw is showing and will take the pot, however sometimes a person will have a low flush and call and then i'm left getting busted out. it's all about experimenting. i'm just starting out online and have been playing diff styles in the cheap SNG's figuring out what best works for me.
if your just starting out,id reccomend you play 2NL and play alot of cash. its the hardest type of game and if you get good at it you will have an edge against your opponents in general. its also the best way to gain experience IMO. and the best form of poker. its straight forward and the winnings are instant.

Dont get me wrong sng's are great but before you get into them its better off having some experience playing cash and get familiar with the basics and which spots are good for what etc.
 
micalupagoo

micalupagoo

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bluffing is something I do seldom
I maintain a tight image and I get good bluffs in when I do,
cuz they only think I play with a top hand,
positioning is a huge factor not mentioned much yet,
moreso than the player themselfs I think (most half knowledged players know position and know when you've been folding lots)
so at the right time with the right players is a very profitable move,
and lets you play more than just your premie hands
 
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Kerrlz

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I try to avoid bluffing with the exception of continuation bets and I usually limit that unless I'm more than double the stack of the opponent. Just make sure you're not too stubborn to pull out. It might hurt to lose 1/8 your stack but its much better than losing 1/2 or all.
 
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stoneman75

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Bluffing is the hardest point of the game, i guess as you learn the game you can read the other person by hand play. But half that for me is playing face too face , awhole new concept on the internet.
 
MTCashman

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sometimes bluffing is the only way to win the hand, use with caution!
 
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kmichaels

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depends of the table, the stack, position, board. Example: If there are calling machines, i mean players that calls with anything, like queen high, the better thing is get out and find a conservative table. But don´t abuse with bluff, and use it wisely or will cost you a lot of money.
 
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Goathair

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Pretty good video on whether to bluff or bet for value.
 
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