Beating Micro stakes -mandatory?

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Murky Lurky

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Hi all,
First off some background about me:
I am relatively new to playing poker, having first caught a passing interest some years ago, but never had the geographical fortune(?) of being anywhere near a casino, nor trusting of online accessible games at the time.
My interest was recently rekindled and furthered when taking a class for statistics in my degree in economics when I took and broke down all the games on offer at my (now) local casino to add something tangible to my studies in order to help them stick. Naturally, poker NLHE specifically, with it's lack of GTO was found to be the only interesting one of the games on offer. So after reading the Mathematics of Poker as well for my downtime reading during that semester I am somewhat interested as to the viability of cash game players, not as a likely avenue to pursue full time, but hey a few extra $ here and there for having some game theory related kicks who wouldn't that enjoy right?
I have won some tournaments already in my very short stint playing around in them and have gained about 1000% on my buy in equity at popular site through small stakes tournament results.
So with all the online literature re: micro stakes grinding it SEEMS fairly interesting, but honestly I doubt that. It seems to me to be seated firmly between rarely viable to hardly even worth it on $/hr basis, but that's not an interest to me -What IS however is the value of it as a learning tool in order to progress to higher stakes.
Is this actually the case? I cannot see the value in taking what I already have in tournament poker ability and basically bastardising that for a short time so as to learn the conventions (because by and large it seems that it is played on convention derived by pigeonholing, narrowed through HUD usage the largely terrible player base so as to profit most from their ineptitude, as well as exploiting the leaks derived from being geared towards these other players from recognisable Xtabling regs) of a stake that to me is likely also largely damaging again to my game because frankly, who could give a shit about making 40-80c/100 hands? Not me, that is damn certain.
Here is the kicker, I work for a casino. I am a dealer at a casino and I see ****ing idiots all the time, every workday. And while so many play the winner and talk up their shit, all are losers. Including regulars at +EV games. Little more than skaters on a wealth transfer mechanism. And those that are "winners" frankly should just get a job, by my estimation they are barely up half the time and when they are it is barely enough to overcompensate down periods. But hey, they are liquidity providers. So someone who spends their time playing for cents on many many tables at a time to me is seating themselves firmly in the sick gambler side of assessment, if they persist for any prolonged period of time, especially if progression is not an enforced goal. That strikes me as an action junkie with shitty risk assessment who has patterned themselves into this mode of play. And needless to say: ****. That.
So, exposure to what seems to be a monotonous, relatively worthless to me on $ basis, convention bet (as opposed to leverage and developed risk assessment) driven play pool -is it worth it as an online poker learning tool for better strategy for higher stakes cash games? Do observations of this player base hold any real value for higher stakes for an already well grounded tournament player? I imagine that by and large almost everyone who plays these stakes never moves into any actual financially useful stakes (except maybe for those based in countries with very weak currencies vs USD/EUR -do you see any Swiss/Saudi players there? Haha!) and therefore when it comes to actually interesting stakes on a grinding assessed basis let's say .50/100 and above the players who started at .01/.02 must be in a minority, correct?

Before you answer, take note: halfway through economics degree, works at a casino, already successful tournament player oh and as for risk tolerance -former deployed combat soldier. I am already smarter than most people you've ever met, but I give this community the respect that there are bound to be many with much much greater insight to the poker industry mechanics and risk/reward assessment distribution amongst player base values.

Yes I know what hubris precedes if that's what you feel you need to post, so don't bother. To that I say this -I have only 2 habits: doing things, and not ****ing those things up.

If you actually read all that, then I am already tipping my hat to you, good sir/madam.
 
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freestocks

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Sit and Go tournaments are an alternative. Small steaks, big payouts, a different kind of patience than micro-cash.
 
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Murky Lurky

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Actually that's very interesting -a middle ground between the respective games I hadn't considered.
A great suggestion thank you for taking the time to put it forward.
 
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BigBloom

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Hi all,

First off some background about me:

I am relatively new to playing poker, having first caught a passing interest some years ago, but never had the geographical fortune(?) of being anywhere near a casino, nor trusting of online accessible games at the time.

My interest was recently rekindled and furthered when taking a class for statistics in my degree in economics when I took and broke down all the games on offer at my (now) local casino to add something tangible to my studies in order to help them stick.

Naturally, poker NLHE specifically, with it's lack of GTO was found to be the only interesting one of the games on offer. So after reading the Mathematics of Poker as well for my downtime reading during that semester I am somewhat interested as to the viability of cash game players, not as a likely avenue to pursue full time, but hey a few extra $ here and there for having some game theory related kicks who wouldn't that enjoy right?


I have won some tournaments already in my very short stint playing around in them and have gained about 1000% on my buy in equity at popular site through small stakes tournament results.
So with all the online literature re: micro stakes grinding it SEEMS fairly interesting, but honestly I doubt that. It seems to me to be seated firmly between rarely viable to hardly even worth it on $/hr basis, but that's not an interest to me -What IS however is the value of it as a learning tool in order to progress to higher stakes.

Is this actually the case? I cannot see the value in taking what I already have in tournament poker ability and basically bastardising that for a short time so as to learn the conventions (because by and large it seems that it is played on convention derived by pigeonholing, narrowed through HUD usage the largely terrible player base so as to profit most from their ineptitude, as well as exploiting the leaks derived from being geared towards these other players from recognisable Xtabling regs) of a stake that to me is likely also largely damaging again to my game because frankly, who could give a shit about making 40-80c/100 hands? Not me, that is damn certain.

Here is the kicker, I work for a casino. I am a dealer at a casino and I see ****ing idiots all the time, every workday. And while so many play the winner and talk up their shit, all are losers. Including regulars at +EV games. Little more than skaters on a wealth transfer mechanism. And those that are "winners" frankly should just get a job, by my estimation they are barely up half the time and when they are it is barely enough to overcompensate down periods. But hey, they are liquidity providers.

So someone who spends their time playing for cents on many many tables at a time to me is seating themselves firmly in the sick gambler side of assessment, if they persist for any prolonged period of time, especially if progression is not an enforced goal. That strikes me as an action junkie with shitty risk assessment who has patterned themselves into this mode of play. And needless to say: ****. That.


So, exposure to what seems to be a monotonous, relatively worthless to me on $ basis, convention bet (as opposed to leverage and developed risk assessment) driven play pool -is it worth it as an online poker learning tool for better strategy for higher stakes cash games? Do observations of this player base hold any real value for higher stakes for an already well grounded tournament player?

I imagine that by and large almost everyone who plays these stakes never moves into any actual financially useful stakes (except maybe for those based in countries with very weak currencies vs USD/EUR -do you see any Swiss/Saudi players there? Haha!) and therefore when it comes to actually interesting stakes on a grinding assessed basis let's say .50/100 and above the players who started at .01/.02 must be in a minority, correct?

Before you answer, take note: halfway through economics degree, works at a casino, already successful tournament player oh and as for risk tolerance -former deployed combat soldier. I am already smarter than most people you've ever met, but I give this community the respect that there are bound to be many with much much greater insight to the poker industry mechanics and risk/reward assessment distribution amongst player base values.

Yes I know what hubris precedes if that's what you feel you need to post, so don't bother. To that I say this -I have only 2 habits: doing things, and not ****ing those things up.

If you actually read all that, then I am already tipping my hat to you, good sir/madam.


Old people cant read wall of texts im going read it now lol
 
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Murky Lurky

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Haha I thought they had physical text walls written on clay and fibrous materials often bound together somehow?
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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Generally people start at the micros because its a fairly safe environment to learn about the basic poker concepts vs players who pretty much hand their money to you on a plate. I would advise anybody new to playing to start there. Having said that, it seems that 200nl live is not any harder than 4nl online. So if you have a decent br, no reason to spend ages beating 4nl once you have the basic concepts covered.
 
Aceplayer55

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Is there a question somewhere in this long lecture?
 
TeUnit

TeUnit

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why not just start at micros and move up as your roll supports it
 
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suricato35

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I don't see why u can't start on higher stakes if ur roll supports it. If u play there and can beat the field, or at least breakeven, to me is just fine starting higher.
I do play micros cause my initial roll couldn't afford playing higher stakes, so for me it was mandatory based on the conditions
 
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Murky Lurky

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Well my roll is already capable of handling variance of larger stakes so micros are potentially a waste of relatively scant time, as well as boring due to little financial incentive (which would also potentially skew risk assessment) on top of already having developed a thus far mildly successful tournament game.
And yes several questions in that lecture, however the main one is asking really if micro's experience holds any lessons that transfer into higher stakes cash games. I can certainly see see how they are largely misleading in many situations (too many to list, but you all know exactly what I mean -think passively called to lose to suck outs on the river to refresh your memory) if one were to naively take them as indicative of the state of the online game at higher levels.
Hell, the cash game at any stake may simply not be my cup of tea compared to tournaments! But who would really be here if the thought of running hot on a table piling some hard currency didn't make their dick (or whatever) stand up even a little! Or seeing little chips sliding across a screen making numbers in your respective little box significantly higher -not quite as visceral and boner inducing imagery but hey, still good :)
My relatively short experience and judgements derived are no replacement for asking a much more deeply and widely experienced community with perspective on all things poker, because beyond all the potential money and whatever, it is simply about learning, understanding and playing the game as well as I can, the rest takes care of itself.

Thanking one and all again for their input.

Sit and go is a popular point and yes I can definitely see the game meshing more with the tournament play in which I am already grounded, I will pursue this further.
And to those that posted who have played through micro stakes and progressed on and up -much respect. You must have the patience of a saint and a belief in mathematics even Pythagoras would be proud of.
 
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starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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however the main one is asking really if micro's experience holds any lessons that transfer into higher stakes cash games. .

Not sure what you mean when you refer to lessons.

That aside, solid poker strategies are equally relevant no matter what game you are playing, 2nl, 200nl or 2000nl.

You seem already decided that you have no intention to play the micros, and thats fine. Just be mindful that if you cant be bothered to practice good poker at the micros, you may regret it later on.
 
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Murky Lurky

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More or less asking if there may be any observable common idiosyncrasies prevalent in micro stakes players that may hold strong relevance to other stakes mostly in the way of common leaks and player types. And yes, basically decided against playing micro stakes already for simply $ interest reasons, I could see "bored tilt" even likely if discipline slips after grinding for a few hrs, but if skipping micro's would cost me useful knowledge it very well would be much more costly measured in $ terms at higher stakes.
You are correct of course -solid poker is solid poker and knowing myself, the more tangible threat to my bankroll and the higher skill of opposition will serve to reinforce disciplined play and spur competitive learning.
Asking Cardschat community first before moving on to increased stakes could simply save me collecting hours of table time for mere cents/hr to arrive at the conclusion myself to move up. Gotta be thorough in these things, It's a merciless world out there as you no doubt know!
(And that's the best part about it!)
See you out there :)
 
dj11

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Consider that there is a beginning phase of learning the game, and a more expensive way (faster is doubt-able) at a $10/20 table. What you are asking is do the cheap games count toward learning.

If you accept that there is skill involved, and a beginner has no skill, but a truckload of money, is he better off playing the high stake games than the cheap games?

If he doesn't care, others will see he has no skill, and will soon be out 1 truck load of money.

If he has a modicum of sense, he will lose a few high stakes hands, re-evaluate, and begin his learning at the cheap tables. (If he were even smarter he might learn what he could for free before even those cheap games).

Each of us will find a balance between enjoyment and education for how we acquire those skills. Many will disregard a conservative bank roll management approach in favor of a more aggressive, exciting and faster approach. They tend to go broke more often, but seem to rebound until their loan sharks get fed up and after a few years their dna is associated with some body parts found deep in the desert.
 
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Murky Lurky

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Exactly -the price of knowledge is what we're talking here. I put it above all things at this point in time, and probably for all time until I happen upon a bracelet or some other equally unlikely pinnacle, but there are no plans or considerations for that. Poker is really just another outlet for my personal competitiveness -since I can train for this in any quiet moment whereas sport has taken a sideline due to time constraints. And it also just happens to sometimes coincide with a shitload of money at points if done right. But at micro's I see how looking to tailor play for success at that level may simply be (and somewhat conversely) expensive opportunity cost wise. If I go higher and find myself unable to take the heat getting 4 bet, 5 bet, raised, check raised and slow played and just plain outgunned more often then lesson learnt time to recheck and assess further. Perhaps I am in the minority of people when I say I find it acceptable if not enjoyable to be classily outdone?
Besides, I'm playing with a now largely increased initial buy in equity, so a loss is only less than 10% of it's size as it relates to real world cost to me. -not that that is any excuse for poor play or complacency!
Don't worry, I see those hard of learning types in front of me all the time -if you want to be reminded every single workday about exactly what not to be in this game, you should be a dealer like me. It is literally 95% of the time mentally facepalming at own species stuff. It actually makes me less enthusiastic about the game, I literally researched the clinical definitions of gambling and problem gambling so as to make sure deciding to play this game was not a product of constant exposure to the industry and patrons and to build self awareness to insulate myself against subtle behaviour changes. I am nothing if not brutally honest and thorough. But given my studies, my line of work, my learning capacity and work ethic, reinforced with some unexpected and repeated successes already things kind of lined up, the element of luck at work I guess haha!
On a side note, I am impressed with the civility and overall intelligence of these forums so far, looking forward to more in future.
 
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