BB vs. SB: Loose villain keeps limping pre then betting flop. What do you do?

Propane Goat

Propane Goat

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Hi all, I think I have a leak somewhere. I've been playing (losing is a more accurate term) $1.10 DoN's and super turbo $1.10 STT's (should stop playing these) and I keep running into this situation, here's a typical hand:
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Hero (~10BB) is in BB with :8c4::2s4: (or any other typical junk hand.)

Action folds around to villain in SB (15+ BB), villain limps.

Hero checks.

Flop: :kd4::qd4::7h4: (or any other cards where I completely miss and don't even have any draws)

Villain bets ~$100-$150.

Hero folds.
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This is getting kind of frustrating, I'm not sure if it's because I'm playing too tight and people figure that they can run all over me, but it seems like suicide to start raising pre or post flop when I have complete air both before and after. My problem is trying to figure out when the villain actually has anything, in the instances where I've tried to defend with something like K6 I've been hammered by something like AK or a premium pair.

What would you do if you're down to ~10-12BB and in the BB with junk, a somewhat loose bigger stack in the SB limps and you know he's going to bet the flop because he's done it to you several times already when it's blind vs. blind, would you just raise/shove ATC pre to get him to back off? How would your strategy change between DoN's and STT's?

Any advice appreciated:)
 
PrayForSpades

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Sounds like he is a fish, shove on him when he limps to you BvB
 
helpspb

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I wouldn't bet with complete air out of the position. I play DON (well, fifty50) on pokerstars and barely lose. To your question - if I'm on BB with 10-12BB left and have junk..... well, I'm gonna fold. If I had ATo I might shove since you say you had a read on villain. Might happen that this one time, he actually has a strong hand, but overall I wouldn't worry too much about defending your blind, especially if you have trash hands. I usually play pretty tight and bet big or shove (if Im convinced they'll call) strong hands. It works for me.
 
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RickAversion

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Why are you frustrated?
You have junk with 28o.
I would fold and never think about it again.
 
Propane Goat

Propane Goat

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Thanks for your help, everyone. I wasn't sure what to do in this scenario, knowing that the villain is likely just trying to steal the pot with nothing since odds are that he missed the flop too. I've been taking notes on players that I see doing this to others a lot and whether or not they back off if their opponent raises/shoves, in case I get put into a table with them on my right.
 
Poker Orifice

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Sounds like he is a fish, shove on him when he limps to you BvB
Doesn't sound like he's a fish at all (imo). If he's able to 'Limp>Stab-steal' regularly in BvB situations, how does that make him a 'fish'?

Propane, to counteract this you've just got to jam it in pre. Unless villain is like uber-tricky & is balancing by limping hands he's hoping to induce a shove (but probably unlikely).
 
etherghost

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SB limp is actually bonus for you if you have crap. At least you get to see the flop without having to pay extra. If you hit something, great... if not, and SB raises post flop, ahhh well, at least you had a look at the flop. :)
 
loafes

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To be honest I think its exploitable to let players get away with this too often, yeah if you have trash then most of the time you should let them have it, however sometimes you just have to take a stand and shove a very wide range preflop. The fact that villain limps indicates they don't have a particularly strong hand and as you identified, they are usually looking to stab at it post flop so if you shove on them then then its going to be extremely difficult for them to call, especially since its a DON. Plus even if they do call then your probably still live unless they have a big PP which isn't very likely, vs a hand like AK you are plenty live.


Also if you have info that they are stabbing at a lot of flops then sometimes on certain board textures where I really doubt they hit anything I'll also on occasion take a stand and shove over their bet assuming there is still fold equity. taking a stand either preflop or post flop also has the added benefit of letting the villain know that you aren't going to roll over for them.
 
A

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Start floating If you connect in any way. Someone said this is a typical fish/donk move, and I definitely have to agree. Fish/donks tend to do this a lot. Limps to your BB and then instantly clicks min-bet into you. You just know he has air but you can't do anything if you have a really junk hand and unfortunately you must let it go. But whenever you connect and you feel you're ahead then float or raise sometimes and see what happens. Also dont be afraid to shove preflop with any decent hand when blinds get large. LImping usually means weakness.
 
T

twohaha

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Well, you got a chance to see the flop, especially if the villain had a big hand and didn't raise. Assuming SB is a fish, just fold this trash, you'll make it all back just by playing your premium hands or when your trash hits the flop hard.

Depending on the type of game you are playing, you'll only be playing 10-20% of every hand, so you'll be folding most of the time anyways :)
 
Propane Goat

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Thanks for the advice everyone, I haven't run into this problem in the games I've played today but the other night it was really getting frustrating.

I was in a DoN and getting short from being completely card dead, I think it was at least four times that the SB kept limping pre then betting the flop but I was stuck because I was on this run where I kept getting offsuit hands like J2, 82, 74 in the BB and they would never connect with the flop at all. I finally picked up JJ, which was the best hand and the only pair of the whole game, and was ready and willing to finally tangle with this guy.......and then he folded.
 
T

trent32la

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If you are the BB and your opponent keeps doing that here could be a solution! One...if u have a marginal hand or so...iso raise him preflop and see if he folds...but i see you have 28 off...you simply gotta fold that hand every single time...your obv beat/behind and he/she could be on a flush draw...however...most times u should be calling off the first barrell if he donk leads (which many do) in order to slow them down...this applies to nearly every situation...unless you have complete air..no draws nothing at all...you should be calling the flop bet and forcing him to double barrell in order to take the pot...this is a "float" as most of you know...if u ever have anything like a mid/bottom pair just shove...top pair I might slow play.
 
R

rrph3rtbkr

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i have a straight forward strategy dude , i play TAG style and when i get below 15bb i would normally shove any pair ,any Ax ,KQ o,s . u playing loose and normally u should shipped when u get 10-12bb because if u gonaa raise there isnt be mutch stack left that u could blow off ur opponent and the villains know u are short stack and they will come over u all the time ,so its suicide of calling or raise with 10-12 bb , u should b in push or fold mode most of the time. u could think of playing normal poker when ur above 20 bb
 
Arjonius

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This kind of situation isn't always the same in DoNs and STTs. Because of the difference in the pay tables, survival is a larger factor in DoNs and playing to finish first is obviously less meaningful.

There's also a difference between one player who has been limping his SB into your BB repeatedly, and this situation occurring often overall but seldom before or not at all in this particular game with this particular opponent.

In terms of a broader strategy, whether in a DoN or an STT, it's not particularly likely that I'd have let anyone limp his SB into my BB more than once or twice without raising. In general, since the limp indicates a modest range, I can profitably raise a fairly wide range in position. Plus if he is the type who limps premiums, I give myself the chance to find that out early enough to get away with a relatively small loss of chips, not when I only have 10bb as in the example hand.
 
pistolpetewags11

pistolpetewags11

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Let villain keep betting. Its blind v blind. It's nbd. However, once in awhile, reraise him. U should get some added value out of that.
 
el_magiciann

el_magiciann

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+1 dude.... Just fold and move on. Ur hand sucks.

+1 more, it is funny hand :D fold and see your next hand, if you want to see your opponent cards you can see it by watching what he got on other hands not only against you and you can understand his action better! : ):p
 
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