Apparently I cannot Math. Can You?

S

StatusOmega525

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Total posts
47
Chips
0
So, a bit of backstory. I've been playing hold'em for a good number of years, entirely for the fun/social aspect of it. Making outrageous hero calls, trying to ninja my way through hands to strike from the shadows, that sorta thing. All in good fun. Developed quite a love of the game.

Well, earlier this year, as the retail job I've been at for years began to sour even more than usual, I came to the realization that poker was the only thing I really loved enough to consider even the possibility of turning it into something resembling a career. So while I've only had my laptop for about a week, and just started playing freerolls on ACR, I've spent hundreds of hours over the last few months on my tablet, reading articles on strategy, watching videos and tutorials, searching local bookstores for any books on the subject, and so on and so forth. Some of what I've come across I've been able to process just fine. The importance of position has been made very clear to me, I have a pretty good idea of what I want my starting hands to look like, have a decent idea of how I want to play them (I've discovered I'm a pretty tight, slightly aggressive sort of player, though I like making loose cannon calls just to keep 'em guessing.), I'm very comfortable with what I want my bankroll management plan to look like, and have added in extra safety nets just to make sure I don't bust.

And then came the Math.

Now, I've never really had a head for math, my brain just doesn't deal with that sort of thing naturally. Some of it I understand a little bit in principle, though it still takes time for me to work through it all and I never feel like I have enough time in a hand to really make use of it. Add to that the fact that the idea of ranges keep flying right over my head makes me worry that I'm missing a downright vital part of what makes a good poker player. Its not that I haven't read and studied on these topics until my eyes shut down, its just that somehow I cant find a way to take the information itself and turn it into a practical application. Does anybody have any strategies they recommend when the statistical part of the brain is shut down? Any advice would be dearly welcome.

Sorry for the long post, but thanks for sticking with me.
 
es530

es530

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 11, 2014
Total posts
1,166
Chips
0
StatusOmega525 said:
So, a bit of backstory. I've been playing hold'em for a good number of years, entirely for the fun/social aspect of it. Making outrageous hero calls, trying to ninja my way through hands to strike from the shadows, that sorta thing. All in good fun. Developed quite a love of the game.

Well, earlier this year, as the retail job I've been at for years began to sour even more than usual, I came to the realization that poker was the only thing I really loved enough to consider even the possibility of turning it into something resembling a career. So while I've only had my laptop for about a week, and just started playing freerolls on ACR, I've spent hundreds of hours over the last few months on my tablet, reading articles on strategy, watching videos and tutorials, searching local bookstores for any books on the subject, and so on and so forth. Some of what I've come across I've been able to process just fine. The importance of position has been made very clear to me, I have a pretty good idea of what I want my starting hands to look like, have a decent idea of how I want to play them (I've discovered I'm a pretty tight, slightly aggressive sort of player, though I like making loose cannon calls just to keep 'em guessing.), I'm very comfortable with what I want my bankroll management plan to look like, and have added in extra safety nets just to make sure I don't bust.

And then came the Math.

Now, I've never really had a head for math, my brain just doesn't deal with that sort of thing naturally. Some of it I understand a little bit in principle, though it still takes time for me to work through it all and I never feel like I have enough time in a hand to really make use of it. Add to that the fact that the idea of ranges keep flying right over my head makes me worry that I'm missing a downright vital part of what makes a good poker player. Its not that I haven't read and studied on these topics until my eyes shut down, its just that somehow I cant find a way to take the information itself and turn it into a practical application. Does anybody have any strategies they recommend when the statistical part of the brain is shut down? Any advice would be dearly welcome.

Sorry for the long post, but thanks for sticking with me.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum.
If I could give me some advice when I started. I would say this: focus on reading hands as it is the most important part. because the rest will depend on this reading always. with time, other things will come naturally.
 
whiskers77

whiskers77

The art of purring
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2017
Total posts
5,787
Awards
15
DE
Chips
942
I pretty much can understand you. I am also not that typical math person. But, if you need it, you can do it. I also tried always to avoid math in my life. I always tought, I need to get rid of it. I even took a job, where math is hardly involved, to find myself later on studying computer science. Really intersting topics there and I loved to do that.

But this study included 3 semesters of math, damn. I had to cope with this damn subject again. But yeah, I did it and I finished it somehow. I guess it is the same with poker math. You need to sit down some time and try to calculate it again and again until you have it in your urin. Maybe with pen and paper.
Well, I also still have to do, because I am still trying to avoid math in my leisure time. But I guess for being not only mediocre, it should be like this.
 
mtl mile end

mtl mile end

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Oct 19, 2017
Total posts
11,293
Awards
23
CA
Chips
138
We're not taking about mathematics as much as we're talking about arithmetic here. It's just addition and division for the most part.

You MUST put your opponent on a range, giving you an opportunity to count outs, theirs or yours. Once you have a number of outs, divide by 47 (round to 50) on the Flop (awaiting the Turn) or 46 (round to 50) on the Turn (awaiting the River). Or you can assign about 2.25% per out on any given street.

You don't have to do the math every time once you know the common ratios. Like knowing that a pocket pair has about 12% (8:1) of hitting a set on the Flop, you should know that a PP that missed the Flop has a 4.25% chance (2 outs in 47 card stub) of hitting on the Turn, or 4.35% chance (2 outs in 46 cards) of hitting the River if they (the PP) miss the Turn. This means you have an 8.6% chance (2/47 + 2/46) of hitting on either street combined. This is an example of a two outer on Turn, River, and a two outer twice.

It may be difficult to wrap your head around at first, but it is not complicated. It is so simple that you should be memorizing the ratios as opposed to calculating them every time. The calculation, while simple, is tedious to perform every hand, every street. Plus, you need to be aware of the Turn and River possibilities on the Flop so that you can plan your attack with foresight. It should become instinctive, like driving a car. You never think "I have to press the clutch now" followed by "I now have to let the clutch up while I press the gas" - you just do it. Fortunately, unlike driving, you can always "pause" and use your time bank if necessary.:driver:
 
Last edited:
F

FailX21

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 11, 2018
Total posts
145
Chips
0
You also need to get drilled. That's why it's important to alternate between studying and playing. You need to incorporate what you learn to your plays, and get used to it. Theory is one thing, applying it is another, and that's the tricky part.

I would advise you to track your hands, either with a tracker like PT4, HM2, ... or by writing some important hand on a piece of paper next to you. Then, once you're done playing, you can analyze your plays in details and take as much time as needed.
Try to not do this instantly after your session, but a bit later, like the day after.

If you do that, it will become easier with time !
 
elflake

elflake

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2018
Total posts
164
Chips
0
You don't need to go into the depths of probability and statistics to be a successful player,( though understanding advanced probability, game theory, and logic is better, it is not necessary ). Poker math is simple and straight forward for the most part. You can just round off outside straight draws and flush draws to 33%, hitting a set to 10%, etc.. Of course learning how to apply those numbers is the important part, understanding pot odds, implied odds, and "fuzzy math" like "will I get paid off if I hit?". All I can tell you is to read theory that explains this stuff til you understand it. I was lucky to naturally be good at math, taking three semester of calculus, linear algebra, and two graduate level statistics classes, but I don't think that any of that coursework helps my poker game.
 
elflake

elflake

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2018
Total posts
164
Chips
0
Something that might help you get a feel for the numbers is going into the odds calculator and loading hands to see the percentage chance of winning.
 
elflake

elflake

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2018
Total posts
164
Chips
0
Also, as someone else already mentioned, many players just use the technique of counting outs and doubling that number to see a rough approximation of your percentage chances. This is from the flop so double it again to see chance through river. Example : flush draw gives you 9 outs so doubled and doubled again is 36%, which obviously makes no difference in how you play the hand to the real percentage of 34.92%
 
S

StatusOmega525

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Total posts
47
Chips
0
Thanks for the advice, everybody. I've actually found a good listing of some of the more common odds and ratios, so that should help moving forward. right now none of the sites I play seem to support the popular trackers, but I do write down a few of more frustrating hands for review. I never really thought about using the odds calculator, mostly because I felt that would just give me another series of numbers to make it more confusing starting out, but Ill give that a try. I would much rather have a play/study ratio of about 4/1, but time to play is a bit hard to come by until we can settle our daily schedule to allow for some solid time for it. Also, until I finally picked up my laptop this past week, I really had no way to play save for free money games on my androids play store, and I've always felt like too many players on those will gamble with luck, so taking many meaningful lessons away from that always felt like trying to find a shiny new penny in a tub of old beat up pennies. Even in freerolls, the quality of play I've come across here seems to at least be at a level where I can keep working on trying to locate and hopefully plug my many leaks. Again, thanks for all the response. I really do appreciate it. Good luck at the tables, everyone.
 
Top