Can anyone analyse the low-limit freerolls metagame for me?

Put differently, what would be a good strategy against donks?

I'm a donk myself, and I'm having a hard time figuring out other donks. Their play seems so random at times. And once you think you're getting to know a certain player, he leaves the table and a new one joins.

More generally, I'm having trouble interpreting bets from other players. For example:

- Checking can indicate weakness, but it can also be part of a check-raise.

- Raising on the flop can indicate a strong hand, but it can also be a strategy to get a free card on the turn.

So other player's bets can be interpreted in multiple ways, and I often don't know which interpretation to choose, so I end up just randomly choosing between them.

"low limit freerolls metagame" made me lol.

occam's razor applies, the most simple explanation is usually best. when someone checks, it usually isn't part of an elaborate trap, it's usually because they are weak. when someone raises, it isn't usually an elaborate bluff, it's usually because they have a good hand.

of course this isn't always true, bad players will bluff and bad players love to slowplay, but against an unknown you are generally better off assuming that an action means exactly what it appears to mean at face value. when examples come up where this isn't true, well that's what notes are for.

Dorkus Malorkus said:

"low limit freerolls metagame" made me lol.

occam's razor applies, the most simple explanation is usually best. when someone checks, it usually isn't part of an elaborate trap, it's usually because they are weak. when someone raises, it isn't usually an elaborate bluff, it's usually because they have a good hand.

of course this isn't always true, bad players will bluff and bad players love to slowplay, but against an unknown you are generally better off assuming that an action means exactly what it appears to mean at face value. when examples come up where this isn't true, well that's what notes are for.

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Interesting ... so you would start from a simple profile for every player, and adapt the profile when you gain new information.

Question: how would you know if someone was bluffing or slowplaying, except by seeing his cards at showdown?

Often, the player that was using a deceptive tactic will fold or muck.

cuffslurp said:

Often, the player that was using a deceptive tactic will fold or muck.

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most sites allow you to see mucked cards in the hand history.

folded cards of course you can't see.

BelgoSuisse said:

most sites allow you to see mucked cards in the hand history.

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Hmm ... do you mean that you can actually see what the cards were? Or just that the player mucked his cards?

Here is an example in a pokerstars hand history

*** SHOW DOWN ***
CrazyWoman: shows [4c 6d] (a pair of Sixes)
ALLINoMATO: mucks hand
CrazyWoman collected 180 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 180 | Rake 0
Board [Ks 6s 3c Th 5s]
Seat 1: concrete rse folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: charles71185 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: jillychemung folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ALLINoMATO (button) mucked [2s 2h]
Seat 6: Democritus11 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: CrazyWoman (big blind) showed [4c 6d] and won (180) with a pair of Sixes
Seat 8: Nabastak folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Shogun1234 folded before Flop (didn't bet)


So even though players didn't see the 22 that lost it does show in the hand history and at PokerStars it shows in the replay and the last hand widgets that are in the upper left of the table.

Most all sites that have HH will show the mucked losing cards for a showdown.

ot remark: bodog doesn't. Hand history shows exactly the cards you saw when playing the hand and no more. (Also doesn't save histories to disk ... I am yet to try the idleminer handgrabber for bodog, so no clue whether this will magically reveal mucked cards for me, but I'm thinking not. Would love it if it did, though.)

edited to add: on second thought, maybe I'd hate it, because I want my own muckeds to stay mucked at least on one of the sites I play at, thankyouverymuch

cuffslurp said:

Put differently, what would be a good strategy against donks?

I'm a donk myself, and I'm having a hard time figuring out other donks. Their play seems so random at times. And once you think you're getting to know a certain player, he leaves the table and a new one joins.

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Gotta admit, this left me scratching by head a bit. ... :hmmmm2:

If you know (and admit) you're a donk, then you must know what makes a donk - a donk. What's to figure out???

Then again, maybe you're not a true 'donk' ...

Donk/ey is, in general, a 'bad player'. I'm not sure there ever IS a way to figure them out or develop a strategy to use. You play your best cards when you can. Most of the time - your good cards will beat their bad play.

Developing a strategy might be like trying to figure out the next move of someone who has gone off their meds. You just never know what they are going to do next. All-in with 7,2o? Chase to the river to sukout a straight or flush? You're dealing with erratic play without any planned rhyme or reason. Most of them are adrenalin junkies that live for the rush of the one hand win, not the long haul profit.

Wouldn't spend a lot of time on it ...

cuffslurp said:

Hmm ... do you mean that you can actually see what the cards were? Or just that the player mucked his cards?

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Yes. Most do, Bodog being a notable exception. There is a "Last Hand" button or link on most of the sites and I suggest you use it liberally. Unfortunately it only only shows the others hand when the hand went to showdown, but there is a lot of information there, not just for the hands you were involved in, but all hands.

FWIW, take notes (usually accessed by right clicking on the player. You either get a popup; i.e. UBNet, Carbon/Walker, FullTilt, AP; or it switches the "chat"window to "Note" with the players handle; i.e. Cake, Pokerstars). Full tilt lets you assign a color to player and I think everybody has their own system for this. Seeing the color will let you know you've played this person before and there may be notes on them.

As far as the completly erratic players go they are either complete donks who have watched too much poker on TV and think they're Gus Hanson or, worse yet, savvy players who are deliberately mixing up their play to KEEP you confused. Sorting that out takes time which you may or may not have, but if you start out tight you get a lot more chances to figure this out.

And, FWIW, the fact that you are asking questions and actually thinking about the game would lead me to believe that your "donkeydom", if it even exists, will probably be short-lived.

Good luck.

nevadanick said:

Developing a strategy might be like trying to figure out the next move of someone who has gone off their meds.

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lol

nevadanick said:

Wouldn't spend a lot of time on it ...

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What would you suggest, instead? Keep in mind that I'm a poor philosophy student without a poker budget.

hipshot55 said:

Yes. Most do, [...]. There is a "Last Hand" button or link on most of the sites and I suggest you use it liberally.

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Hmm ... what's the point of mucking if other players can see what your cards were anyway? :icon_scra

nevadanick said:

If you know (and admit) you're a donk, then you must know what makes a donk - a donk. What's to figure out???

Then again, maybe you're not a true 'donk' ...

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Well, they say admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.

Once you can spot donks, you're no longer one

cuffslurp said:

Hmm ... what's the point of mucking if other players can see what your cards were anyway? :icon_scra

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Ask yourself what tiny percentage of those playing bother to go back an look at what anybody mucked. And, again, you can only see those hands that went to showdown, not those folded prior to that.

cuffslurp said:

Hmm ... what's the point of mucking if other players can see what your cards were anyway? :icon_scra

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any player at the table dealt into the hand can ask to see the cards at the showdown. its
a rule as far as i know..

Edit: I mean at a casino anyways. Its just considered rude.

Find out how aggressive the donk is before your decision. If he likes to raise a lot and you hit a monster on flop check/raise him. I find that when i check raise tho he always folds to my turn bet

It's very hard to read someone when you can't see them. You have to be patient while playing on line. I find that most of the donks weed thierselves out of the tourneys quick even if they had a couple lucky all ins!

There's such a thing as low-limit freeroll metagame?