Any advice? ($50 Bankroll Building)

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ShreddieNut

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So i have around $50 in my account on wsop. I have decided i want to try and build it to around $500 before i start playing some cash games (5/10c).

I am familiar with bankroll management, but i cannot play things like $1 SNG or MTT. Nor can i play 1/2c or 2/4. They're just too painful to play, and i simply can't make a profit from them after rake. I am willing to use slightly aggressive
bankroll management.

So, what should i play?


I hope this made sense.
 
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x_driven_x

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So you don't want to play cash games, and you don't want to play the $1 SnGs or MTTs.

I suppose then your next best options are going to be something like $3.30 SnGs or maybe $5.50 if you really want to be aggressive. I don't know what WSOP spreads, but maybe you can look into that. What about the Double or Nothing SnGs?
 
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WizardRubic

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The rake there is 5%? Is that right?

If you can't beat the 1 dollar sngs, I don't think you should be trying the 3.30 sngs. While it is aggressive management, I can't see it turning out too well.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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The rake there is 5%? Is that right?

If you can't beat the 1 dollar sngs, I don't think you should be trying the 3.30 sngs. While it is aggressive management, I can't see it turning out too well.

I don't agree with you. You can beat $1 sng games by having ITM as high as 50% and still come out as loser. This is simply because of horrible rake at microstakes. If I recall, rake for $1 games are 20%. Usually, most games are 10%. Rake for cash games are 5% and they rake upto $3. But stakes way higher than 2NL-10NL, they have rakes capped at $3. So it means upto $60 pot, they're raking 5%. Anytime pot goes over $60, THEN rake is better since maximum rake is $3, hence making rake % lower.

Although I was able to grind my way to $1200 profit on Full Tilt, starting from 30 cent Daily Dollar satellites, to 80 cent BLT satellites, to $2 super Double Deuce Satellites, to $6 double deuce satellites, while also grinding 2NL and 5NL, I do agree with OP. It's just too painful to play at $1-2 sngs, 2NL-5NL cash games, not to mention the horrible rake. I was able to do it because I was getting rakeback, while utilizing full tilt points to satellite into daily dollar and BLT tournaments for free almost every single day, which gave me huge advantage and good boost to my bankroll. I was able to play Daily Dollar and BLT tournaments for free and anytime I cash, it was a pure profit and good boost to my bankroll. I also used full tilt points to satellite my way into bigger tournaments too, such as double deuce and midnight madness all for free. I also played private freerolls such as cc and rakeback's sites.

But to think of myself of purely grinding through $1 sngs or 2NL without those bonuses, rakebacks, points, etc, not to mention the extreme horrible rake, it's just horrible and makes me want to puke.

My advice to OP is two options.

1. Deposit more money, find bigger games with better rake.
2. Look for freerolls(private ones of course) and build it up until you get at least $200. This is the option I'm currently doing since I play freerolls from my rakeback provider's site. I'm doing this because after Black Friday screwed me over and having $800 locked up, I am extremely reluctant to deposit. And also, by just playing freerolls, you're saving time and you can do other stuff in life or if you're serious about poker, look for live home games(which have better or no rake) or casinos. I rather just play freerolls few times and win big than wasting my time grinding at 2NL or $1-2 sngs. But I've never played on WSOP site and dunno what it's like there, if they offer public/private freerolls or not.

Grinding those $1-2 sngs and 2NL is clearly waste of time. I play on ACR for 2NL games for fun using money I won through freerolls when I'm on my computer and want to play poker. But I don't grind like I used to.
 
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abzdolc

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a lot of sng 0.25 c / 45 , you will not risk a lot and will see a lot of mistakes of u and opponents, when you have 75 $ - start to play 1$ sng 45, 150$ - sng 1$ /180 or 3.5 $ / 45
 
Eatscake

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If anyone actually thinks $1 SNGs are unbeatable you are either horribly bad at poker or have never played them. The play in them is just so unbelievably bad its ridiculous. I think anyone with a half decent skill level could beat $1 SNGs at over 40% ROI. It wouldnt take long 6tabling them to get bankrolled for $3 SNGs then grind those which are also seriously soft. Sooner or later youre at $200 - $300 and you can start 10NL.
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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If anyone actually thinks $1 SNGs are unbeatable you are either horribly bad at poker or have never played them. The play in them is just so unbelievably bad its ridiculous. I think anyone with a half decent skill level could beat $1 SNGs at over 40% ROI. It wouldnt take long 6tabling them to get bankrolled for $3 SNGs then grind those which are also seriously soft. Sooner or later youre at $200 - $300 and you can start 10NL.

I'm speaking as a person who has beaten all stakes upto and including $6 sngs.

I've grinded and profited over 100 buy-ins of each stt stakes of 0.30 DD satellites , 0.80 BLT satellites, $2 Super satellite to Double Deuce, $6 satellites to Double Deuce. I've 9-16 tabled all of those stakes. The question is, if you're serious about building a bankroll, you're wasting your time grinding at $1.2($1 + 0.20) sng. Let's say your ROI of $1.2 games is 20% because 40% is an exaggeration, mine was roughly 27-30% at those extreme microstakes. That's 24 cents profit per game. Is it really worth the hassle grinding those 24 cent profit each game? So you multi-table 4-6 tables, you're gonna average slightly less than $1-1.50 profit per SESSION. I've done this before and it was really painful. I prefer to play private freerolls few times, get few big wins, save up, and play bigger sng/mtt/cash. By doing this, you save time and pain while having no risk, and gain big. I can just play few good private freerolls and time it takes to build up to $200 will be lot shorter compared to the time it takes to build upto $200 playing $1/2 sngs.

As I was grinding $2 stt Super sat to Double Deuce, and then moved up to $6 double deuce satellites, while supplementing my bankroll with rakeback, bonuses, freerolls, etc, I realized how much time I've wasted at those extreme microstakes. I thought of grinding those stakes like a school where $.30 sng = 1st grade, 0.80 = 2nd grade, $1.2 = 3rd grade, $2 = 4th grade, $3.3 = 5th grade, $5/6 = 6th grade, $10 = 7th, etc. But as I was seeing my self grinding at $6 stts where my rakeback was extremely high, and I was actually releasing promotional bonuses easily, I grinded $100s like it was nothing. And with those points and rakeback I was getting, I qualified for higher private freerolls from rakeback site, hence more opportunity to make money. Then looking back, I realize grinding all stakes lower than $2 stt were virtually waste of time. It was good experience for me, beating out the variance, fixing my game, exploiting my opponents weaknesses, developing brm discipline, etc. But anyone serious about building a bankroll, all stakes below $2 = waste of time.
Benefit of playing with money won through freeroll, since u never need to deposit or use money that came out of your pocket, you have no fear of risking your chips anytime of the game, hence allowing you to make +EV decisions without having any fear of losing money. My bankroll seemed like a play money and online poker became a video game to me. I was able to focus on beating the game where money naturally followed as I was beating the game, rather than focused on winning money.
 
Arjonius

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Nor can i play 1/2c or 2/4. They're just too painful to play, and i simply can't make a profit from them after rake.
Yes, the rake at micros is a higher % than at higher stakes. But, while I can't speak to WSOP specifically since I don't play there, I've never seen a site where NL2 and NL4 weren't beatable for a decent win rate. With bonuses / rakeback, 5-10 bb per 100 is certainly achievable, and the big winners can do even better.
 
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ShreddieNut

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If anyone actually thinks $1 SNGs are unbeatable you are either horribly bad at poker or have never played them. The play in them is just so unbelievably bad its ridiculous. I think anyone with a half decent skill level could beat $1 SNGs at over 40% ROI. It wouldnt take long 6tabling them to get bankrolled for $3 SNGs then grind those which are also seriously soft. Sooner or later youre at $200 - $300 and you can start 10NL.

I have to disagree. Playing at 1/2 or 2/4 you get people who will raise and call you down from utg with hands like J9o, simply because they'll say "it's only a dollar." Too many times have I had aces or kings, shoved and be called by hands such as a-10 or suited hands like k-5, for them to flop a straight or a flush. Call it a bad beat, but I've never been in a situation like that in games such as .5/.10 for example. And I mustn't be that bad, I've been grinding the $7 there and cashing in about 3/4 of them.
 
Eatscake

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I have to disagree. Playing at 1/2 or 2/4 you get people who will raise and call you down from utg with hands like J9o, simply because they'll say "it's only a dollar." Too many times have I had aces or kings, shoved and be called by hands such as a-10 or suited hands like k-5, for them to flop a straight or a flush. Call it a bad beat, but I've never been in a situation like that in games such as .5/.10 for example. And I mustn't be that bad, I've been grinding the $7 there and cashing in about 3/4 of them.

You do realise what you just said completely proves my point? You shove with aces and kings and get called by anything from A10 to K5, and thats a bad result? Are you kidding me? I wish there were people playing like that at a .5/.10 game!
 
PoKeRFoRNiA

PoKeRFoRNiA

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You do realise what you just said completely proves my point? You shove with aces and kings and get called by anything from A10 to K5, and thats a bad result? Are you kidding me? I wish there were people playing like that at a .5/.10 game!

It's funny how people can get result-oriented. One thing I've learned from playing microstakes is, poker is all about equities. Poker is about shipping your money in with a better hand, dominate their hand preferably. But one thing you have to realize is that variance will be lot harsher since you will rarely win pots uncontested. You have to win lot of pots through showdowns, hence more variance. This, added with horrible rake, can hinder microstakes players from moving up quickly.
 
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