Am I playing pocket KK incorrectly?

First of all, I'm a noob here and love the forum. I have read a great deal of useful information over the past several weeks. Thanks!

Keep in mind, I'm not much of a MTT player, but I decided to play both Daily Dollar tournaments today to get some cheap practice. In both tournaments I had pocket KK and got knocked out both times. Am I doing something wrong? I was trying to get all of my chips in the middle without scaring anyone off because based on observations of the player I was up against, I thought I was ahead. I was right both times until the river came, after I was all in. Could I have changed anything here to change the outcome? Should I have pushed all in preflop? Thanks for any and all help!

Example 1:

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to supercompact [Kd Kh]
City Center folds
TBone1112 folds
Postitall folds
Alingih has 15 seconds left to act
Alingih folds
kodialk one folds
supercompact raises to 120
IRIECHIEF calls 100
PPproRO raises to 600
supercompact calls 480
IRIECHIEF folds
*** FLOP *** [3c 4s 9d]
PPproRO bets 1,320
supercompact calls 1,320
*** TURN *** [3c 4s 9d] [5s]
PPproRO bets 1,035, and is all in
supercompact calls 660, and is all in
PPproRO shows [Qh As]
supercompact shows [Kd Kh]
Uncalled bet of 375 returned to PPproRO
*** RIVER *** [3c 4s 9d 5s] [Ah]
PPproRO shows a pair of Aces
supercompact shows a pair of Kings
PPproRO wins the pot (5,280) with a pair of Aces
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,280 | Rake 0
Board: [3c 4s 9d 5s Ah]
Seat 1: IRIECHIEF (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: PPproRO (big blind) showed [Qh As] and won (5,280) with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: City Center didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: TBone1112 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Postitall didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Alingih didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: kodialk one didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: rf1069 is sitting out
Seat 9: supercompact (button) showed [Kd Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings


Example 2:

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to supercompact [Ks Kc]
kunnibert folds
GiveMeUrCh1ps raises to 480
2sirius folds
SNKEBIT folds
mcc43 calls 480
chap folds
supercompact calls 480
Buwz1788 calls 400
JohnnieWalker13 calls 320
*** FLOP *** [3h 7c 5s]
Buwz1788 checks
JohnnieWalker13 bets 960
GiveMeUrCh1ps has 15 seconds left to act
GiveMeUrCh1ps calls 960
mcc43 folds
supercompact calls 960
Buwz1788 folds
*** TURN *** [3h 7c 5s] [9d]
JohnnieWalker13 bets 4,310, and is all in
GiveMeUrCh1ps raises to 7,440, and is all in
supercompact calls 2,910, and is all in
GiveMeUrCh1ps shows [6d 6c]
supercompact shows [Ks Kc]
JohnnieWalker13 shows [Qd 9c]
Uncalled bet of 3,130 returned to GiveMeUrCh1ps
*** RIVER *** [3h 7c 5s 9d] [6h]
GiveMeUrCh1ps shows three of a kind, Sixes
JohnnieWalker13 shows a pair of Nines
GiveMeUrCh1ps wins the side pot (2,800) with three of a kind, Sixes
supercompact shows a pair of Kings
GiveMeUrCh1ps wins the main pot (14,010) with three of a kind, Sixes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 16,810 Main pot 14,010. Side pot 2,800. | Rake 0
Board: [3h 7c 5s 9d 6h]
Seat 1: kunnibert didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: GiveMeUrCh1ps showed [6d 6c] and won (16,810) with three of a kind, Sixes
Seat 3: 2sirius didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: SNKEBIT didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: mcc43 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: chap didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: supercompact (button) showed [Ks Kc] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: Buwz1788 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: JohnnieWalker13 (big blind) showed [Qd 9c] and lost with a pair of Nines

I'd definitely be raising preflop in both hands (four-betting, in the case of the first one). Maybe not shoving (since it'd probably be an overbet and kill any action) but definitely raising. We've almost certainly got the best hand and we'd like to extract some more value from worse hands.

Don't be too worried about slowplaying and "scaring people off". Generally, if you raise again preflop and they get "scared off" then a lot of times you weren't going to get any more money out of them anyway unless they caught something that beat you.

Ex 1) Should have shoved over villian's flop bet. You only had 660 behind, there was no fe left, and no way to avoid becoming either extremely SS'd, or losing the rest of them if an ace does hit the turn.

Ex 2) After the call of the initial rasie by MP, you should have raised then and there. Post flop, there was no reason NOT to shove. Again, you would have left yourself SS or worse by flatting.

In both examples IMO, you let your opponents drive the action, bloat the pot, and catch up. Kings are like aces, you usually win a small pot or lose a big pot because either a) you get blinded by the big pair and miss obvious signs you are beat, or b) you try to get alot of callers of your bets and try to make a huge pot to win, letting one or more catch up. Now I'm not saying always jam the KK's, but the more opponents in the pot, the more dangerous they become, and the more tempting the pot looks to them to chase their draws.

I can see where you're coming from about not wanting to play them scared, but you can't let too many other players see cards. Take over the betting if you feel you are ahead and make them pay, not just call and let them bet 'till they hit. Take control.

Thanks for the informative responses! I guess my thinking was that I was only on one pair, albeit Kings. I was trying to keep the pot small, but with them pushing so hard, it looked like a bluff so I felt like I had no choice but to call with such a strong overpair to the board. I will try pushing harder with top pair pre and post flop next time. I've been burned so many times both ways, I'm just not sure what to think. I know this probably sounds like a broken record based on what I've read on the forums in the past, but it seems that any time I play big pocket pairs online, I'm way ahead on the flop and get drawn out on by a one outer everytime. Haha!

gotta play big hands like that aggresive, sometimes they loose but most often the win, and you want to get paid off when they do win

Yeah, Oz pretty much covered it. But I've played the DD one time and min cashed. I played extremely tight and very aggressive with good hands (AA, KK, QQ, AKs). The DD is basically a pay freeroll, so you're getting freeroll play in it. You can't expect someone to fold AQ in that tournament, so you might as well shove and hope for the best.

I can't (& won't) comment unless you post STACK SIZES (< it's crucial as to how I'd suggest playing 'any' hand.... not just 'KK').

Okay.. a comment.
First hand.... I think flatting here preflop is ok.
On the flop... why do we leave any chips behind?.. sure putting our stack allin we're still getting called.... by do it anyways. There's no sense at all in leaving a piddly amount of chips behind cuz ur obviously never folding any turn card here.... so get them in!!

Also.. don't think you would've been better off to shove preflop in order to 'win the hand'. You got a WAY better result here,.. you got to get villain to get it in bad while being WAY ahead. There's nothing better than that (even if it seems like it sucks when he sucksout). Basically your goal would've (should've) been to try to get as many of villain's chips into the pot as possible (if you figure you could've done that by 4-betting & calling a shove.. then great!!... but perhaps he would've folded preflop?? (I mean he obv. should be folding preflop as AQ is going to be way behind any range that opens in early levels in EP & then 4bets over a HUGE 3bet).

2nd hand (w/o going into too much detail)... stacks look to be quite deep.. FOR SURE you want to 3-bet here with KK... if he's open-raising to 480 (I'm assuming it's 80/160?.. 3x - 480).. you should 3bet to ~1250-1,350 (if it was earlier levels, make your 3-bet size around 3.5x... ie. at 30/60.. villain raises to 180... make it 580 to go (if there's a raise to 180 & a caller... make it even more... say 680 (depends on your stack size & villain's stack sizes though too). You don't want to get into a multi-way pot with your big pr. as it's much better to narrow the field (or even better if you get them to come over the top & then just get it allin).

both hands you need to raise in preflop...
2x or 3x bb...
i first hand i would even reraise that guy but as i saw with AQ he wouldn t fold...
but second one you must be more agressive

Played first one a little too weak... shove on flop. Second one way too weak, shove preflop, or at least raise 3-4x with a raiser and a caller.

yes with KK i would have raised the flop raise. I have been on that side of hands alot, If its strong you need to play it strong, so you dont get sucked out on.

I agree and thanks for all of the insight. I have played my pocket KK and AA very strong in the past only to get reraised and have to fold or call all in and then get sucked out on anyway. Haha! I'm going to start shoving on them if I'm around 10 bb or lower from now on so I at least pick up a small pot as opposed to losing a big one. If I'm in a comfort zone, I'll just play them aggressively and hope the villain don't get lucky.

dg1267 said:

The DD is basically a pay freeroll, so you're getting freeroll play in it. You can't expect someone to fold AQ in that tournament, so you might as well shove and hope for the best.

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Agree 100%. Yes there probably were better ways to play the hand as others suggested above, but chances are your luck would not have changed in these circumstances. 1st hand, just like dg said, someone folding AQ in the DD is pretty much a joke and you lose to the river. Same with the second hand, maybe, a shove would have got your opponent to fold his sixes and you would have picked it up preflop, but the overvaluing of pairs is common, especially in the DD, I wouldn't doubt if pocket 2's would call if you shoved and in this case the river was your demise again. Better luck next time.

johnmenard1 said:

yes with KK i would have raised the flop raise. I have been on that side of hands alot, If its strong you need to play it strong, so you dont get sucked out on.

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So we're raising to not get sucked out on by 2-outers? I thought we raise for value with the big pr. (in hopes actually of villain coming over the top with a 4bet putting us allin). Perhaps you've played a few too many "Railbird" games... where nobody's folding if they have any piece of it.. ie. BPTK is good to go to call off two streets of big value bets... a gutterball is easily worth committing one's stack with on the turn.... you might 'hit'!

Agreed. Shove unless very deep stacked. 2nd best starting hand in hold’em. What else could you want? (except for AA … heh)

I'd 4 bet PF. If you get a caller then most likely they're gonna have a pocket pair or high ace. On the flop I bet the pot,as long as there's no ace. That should take care of it. If they call, they may have hit, so you have to have a read on them. If they raise, they may have you. It's hard to lay down KK so you may have to shove if you think they're playing crap or might be on QQ or JJ. If they call you have to hit them hard on the turn.
In example #2 I think this guy was calling you no matter what you bet.

Try playing more aggressive or you will be pushed around.

Hand 1 = Shove
Hand 2 = 4 Bet