Am I the donk, or is it the other player?

A

ayoslick

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There were 7 players on the table and I was in the 3rd seat to the dealers right in that hand. The blinds were .50/$1 and I have Aces. The person UTG raises it to $3 and I re-raise it to $12.50 (I decided to play my aces aggressively). Everyone but the button and the original raiser calls.

K K K come out on the flop. It was checked to me and I raise my full house to $20, the guy on the button calls (he had about $30 left) and the original raiser guy folds. Turn is an 8 and with the guy only having $10 left I obviously put him all in, he calls. I show him my full house and he shows me K J (can't remember if it was suited or not).

*The original raiser guy had A J. It was a bad beat and I really wasn't upset at losing to the 4 of a kind but a full blown conversation started up about how the hands were played and what I was basically saying was that I want him to make that play against me every time with K J and they kept saying how that was a good call pre-flop.

What do you guys think?
 
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starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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Why do either of you have to be donks?

I dont see any reason to bet the flop though.
 
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MakeUcryalot

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Honestly you should have gone all in from the start. Pre-flop pocket aces have about 80% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in. AA is a strong hand and the worst way to play it is to allow the flop turn and river to be shown, you want to protect your hand. AA will win more than it will lose in the long run if it's heads up so you shouldn't be afraid of going all in. To put it in perspective, he would have never gone all in if he knew you had AA with KJ. You have to protect you AA from getting called. You also should have folded on the flop immediately.
 
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lukeellul92

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Honestly you should have gone all in from the start. Pre-flop pocket aces have about 80% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in. AA is a strong hand and the worst way to play it is to allow the flop turn and river to be shown, you want to protect your hand. AA will win more than it will lose in the long run if it's heads up so you shouldn't be afraid of going all in. To put it in perspective, he would have never gone all in if he knew you had AA with KJ. You have to protect you AA from getting called. You also should have folded on the flop immediately.


^ Read this post, read it a few times over and then never play your AA like this.

If you have say $100 behind, and someone open raises 3bb, then what this donkey is saying is to shove for 100bb...

If you're short stacked in a tournament then go for it, if it gets 3bet before you at a table, then 4bet shove. The dynamics are always different depending on situation.

You got bad beat dude, simple as that. when you get everyone at the table calling your 3bet then you really can't look at a KKK flop and think your AA is still ahead. Because you will get hands like KQ/AK that will stay in the hand.
 
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ph_il

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Honestly you should have gone all in from the start. Pre-flop pocket aces have about 80% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in. AA is a strong hand and the worst way to play it is to allow the flop turn and river to be shown, you want to protect your hand. AA will win more than it will lose in the long run if it's heads up so you shouldn't be afraid of going all in. To put it in perspective, he would have never gone all in if he knew you had AA with KJ. You have to protect you AA from getting called. You also should have folded on the flop immediately.
This is really bad advice.

BTN has 42.5 BBs behind, why would hero want to shove 42.5 + BBs into a 4.5 BB pot with AA? We don't know what the stacks are, but we can at least figure out effective stacks between the hero vs BTN.

Also, the whole "raise to protect your AA" is such a stupid saying. Protect them from what? From your opponent entering a pot? It's the best hand you can have preflop, you aren't raising to protect them, you're raising to extract value and isolate your opponents. If your opponent has KJ, you want them to come into the pot with you, not scare them off with your over shove. That's silly.

Yes, AA wins more than any other hand, but how much value do you expect to get just over shoving with AA and picking up blinds and small raises preflop? Even if you did this 10K times and picked up just blinds 100% of the time, you still wouldn't extract the same amount of value if you had raised PF and let opponents see a flop. Out of 10K times, you win 8K/lose 2K, but that 80% win will net more money overall than just forcing your opponent to fold and you picking up 1.5 BBs each time.

For OP. Just check down to river, then maybe call a small river bet. Your flop is never going to get a K to fold there and it's unlikely you'll get called by any worse hands. With ~38 BBs in the pot and that board, I'm looking for a cheap showdown. A King is definitely in your opponents range, but they could have hands like 22-88 for smaller boats that you'll win at showdown.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

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Honestly you should have gone all in from the start. Pre-flop pocket aces have about 80% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in. AA is a strong hand and the worst way to play it is to allow the flop turn and river to be shown, you want to protect your hand. AA will win more than it will lose in the long run if it's heads up so you shouldn't be afraid of going all in. To put it in perspective, he would have never gone all in if he knew you had AA with KJ. You have to protect you AA from getting called. You also should have folded on the flop immediately.

Oh dear......

We dont want to bet a stupid amount for "protection", we should never bet for protection.

When we are betting with a strong hand it should be for value.
 
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ph_il

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IT WAS,NT A BAD CALL. IT WAS A 50 - 50 SITUATION!! BADBEAT. BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME!
It wasn't a 50-50 situation. No where in the hand was it ever a 50-50, not even preflop.

Also, hero didn't call anything, hero was the aggressor.
 
ovsleka

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Pre-flop pocket aces have about 85% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in.hero was the aggressor.
 
TimovieMan

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Honestly you should have gone all in from the start. Pre-flop pocket aces have about 80% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in. AA is a strong hand and the worst way to play it is to allow the flop turn and river to be shown, you want to protect your hand. AA will win more than it will lose in the long run if it's heads up so you shouldn't be afraid of going all in. To put it in perspective, he would have never gone all in if he knew you had AA with KJ. You have to protect you AA from getting called. You also should have folded on the flop immediately.
LOL.

58981932.jpg


Pre-flop pocket aces have about 85% equity so after the raise you should have gone all in.hero was the aggressor.
LOL. Another one?

So every time you get AA preflop, you 3-bet shove any raise? Even if that's a 100BB shove in a 5BB pot?
Have fun stealing the blinds, and missing ALL the value potential AA has.



OP, preflop was fine, and the only one to play his hand correctly was AJ folding to a 3-bet (although his UTG AJ open was pretty loose imo).

Postflop, you're either way ahead or way behind with no way of knowing which. That means you want to check/call and see as cheap a showdown as possible.
You still beat any pocket pair that thinks it's good, so you can't fold to any bets, but you're never folding the last K, so you can't really bet yourself (unless it checks through two streets, and even then it could be the ultimate slowplay).


Edit:
Regarding your discussion about how the hands were played: one word of advice: never tell the fish they played their hand wrong. Agree that he was correct to call with KJ. That way he'll do it again the next time.
Don't tell your opponent how to play better. That way it's easier to take his money.
 
A

AcesFullOfDonks

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You should almost always be checking back on a bingo board like that. If he's raised UTG he's either holding a strong drawing hand like AK-AJ or a pair. That narrows his range way down. There's no reason for you to not think you're ahead at this point, but there's also no reason for you to bet in case you're behind given his strong opening range. He could have had AK or even KQ/KJ/KT if he's a bit loose. Sometimes a 3bet that is 4/5x his raise will get him off his cards if he's loose. If he calls you know he's probably got a big hand, AA-JJ and AK-AQ. That's a very narrow range, so that's why you should have checked behind on the flop. You're either very far in front or very far behind on that flop. No reason to bet.
 
makisaa

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Your AA is a perfect hand, till you saw KKK... It is logic that if someone had just a K2 won you. On the other hand in this cituation easy you could face a big bluff! The most possiible is that someone had another K! No one was donky!
 
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dejan85

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you played good big re raised other guy is lucky full,you can' pay that much with KJ,but thats poker every card can winn,and you have bad luck...
 
quick

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Definitely don't think overall that you made any bad moves. I think the reraise pre flop was big enough that some players would have considered folding KJ (and the assumption is if they called they're calling with AA-JJ or AK or in some cases higher pocket pairs hoping to set mine, but suited KJ with 2 other players in the pot they might call hoping to spike a flush, 2P, or a st8.

I also agree with other posters that re-shoving all in to his small raise pre flop would have been a waste, he would've insta-folded. Never shove AA pre flop unless you know the guy is a loose cannon and will call or they get really aggro and like 5 bet you pre.

I do think I would have done what you did and put out a C bet on that flop, maybe a little smaller to see what he does (and hoping he has a PP giving him a smaller FH), if he went over the top right then I would've considered folding, but since he just flat calls, I would be cautious and check the turn. He probably would also check the turn because he doesn't want to scare off what he's assuming correctly is a FH. And on the river I'm guessing he either shoves or checks, you check behind and save yourself some cash.

I mean in most of these hands it's PPs vs higher PPs making different full houses, not a K. And If he had AK he would have likely re-raised your pre flop raise. In general I can't even count the number of times I've beat lower full houses with a high PP , in the long run I believe AA on this board is a winner, he could have had QQ-88 easily.

TL;DR: If he shoves the flop I'm likely folding. If he just flat calls my feeler bet I'm slowing it down and probably checking to the river. But overall two monster hands, no one was a donkey here.
 
8475483829

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I think this is one of those rare situations where it doesn't pay to be aggressive on the flop..

1. If one of your opponents has the K, he's obviously never folding.
2. An opponent with AJ-AQ is probably not calling.
3.. I feel like you need to decide if you're willing to call down bets with the best full house... If you are, then you can just try to let opponents bet their lower full houses into you.
 
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ayoslick

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^ Read this post, read it a few times over and then never play your AA like this.



If you have say $100 behind, and someone open raises 3bb, then what this donkey is saying is to shove for 100bb...



If you're short stacked in a tournament then go for it, if it gets 3bet before you at a table, then 4bet shove. The dynamics are always different depending on situation.



You got bad beat dude, simple as that. when you get everyone at the table calling your 3bet then you really can't look at a KKK flop and think your AA is still ahead. Because you will get hands like KQ/AK that will stay in the hand.


Agree, thanks!
 
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ayoslick

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This is really bad advice.



BTN has 42.5 BBs behind, why would hero want to shove 42.5 + BBs into a 4.5 BB pot with AA? We don't know what the stacks are, but we can at least figure out effective stacks between the hero vs BTN.



Also, the whole "raise to protect your AA" is such a stupid saying. Protect them from what? From your opponent entering a pot? It's the best hand you can have preflop, you aren't raising to protect them, you're raising to extract value and isolate your opponents. If your opponent has KJ, you want them to come into the pot with you, not scare them off with your over shove. That's silly.



Yes, AA wins more than any other hand, but how much value do you expect to get just over shoving with AA and picking up blinds and small raises preflop? Even if you did this 10K times and picked up just blinds 100% of the time, you still wouldn't extract the same amount of value if you had raised PF and let opponents see a flop. Out of 10K times, you win 8K/lose 2K, but that 80% win will net more money overall than just forcing your opponent to fold and you picking up 1.5 BBs each time.



For OP. Just check down to river, then maybe call a small river bet. Your flop is never going to get a K to fold there and it's unlikely you'll get called by any worse hands. With ~38 BBs in the pot and that board, I'm looking for a cheap showdown. A King is definitely in your opponents range, but they could have hands like 22-88 for smaller boats that you'll win at showdown.


Very good advise, thanks!!
 
henriquemaduro

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There were 7 players on the table and I was in the 3rd seat to the dealers right in that hand. The blinds were .50/$1 and I have Aces. The person UTG raises it to $3 and I re-raise it to $12.50 (I decided to play my aces aggressively). Everyone but the button and the original raiser calls.

K K K come out on the flop. It was checked to me and I raise my full house to $20, the guy on the button calls (he had about $30 left) and the original raiser guy folds. Turn is an 8 and with the guy only having $10 left I obviously put him all in, he calls. I show him my full house and he shows me K J (can't remember if it was suited or not).

*The original raiser guy had A J. It was a bad beat and I really wasn't upset at losing to the 4 of a kind but a full blown conversation started up about how the hands were played and what I was basically saying was that I want him to make that play against me every time with K J and they kept saying how that was a good call pre-flop.

What do you guys think?


I agree when u said that u want to play against his play with KJ.
 
A

ayoslick

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LOL.

58981932.jpg


LOL. Another one?

So every time you get AA preflop, you 3-bet shove any raise? Even if that's a 100BB shove in a 5BB pot?
Have fun stealing the blinds, and missing ALL the value potential AA has.



OP, preflop was fine, and the only one to play his hand correctly was AJ folding to a 3-bet (although his UTG AJ open was pretty loose imo).

Postflop, you're either way ahead or way behind with no way of knowing which. That means you want to check/call and see as cheap a showdown as possible.
You still beat any pocket pair that thinks it's good, so you can't fold to any bets, but you're never folding the last K, so you can't really bet yourself (unless it checks through two streets, and even then it could be the ultimate slowplay).


Edit:
Regarding your discussion about how the hands were played: one word of advice: never tell the fish they played their hand wrong. Agree that he was correct to call with KJ. That way he'll do it again the next time.
Don't tell your opponent how to play better. That way it's easier to take his money.


Advise well taken. Thanks
 
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