all in over a reraise

cracksniper · Nov 4, 2010

Just wondered what the members thought of this hand I played in a recent grand prix event. Started the live tourney with 10000 chips and had around 9500 only a couple of hours into the comp'. I'm in late pos' there is an EP caller (blinds 1-200) and one mp caller. I get KJ and decide to call also the SB and BB both call.
The flop comes Ks 5s and 3 of something that I can't quite remember. The SB and BB both check then the EP raises to 800, the MP folds, well I've got top pair and a good kicker so with no raises pre flop I decide to reraise 1600, everyone folds to the EP who then goes AI. My thinking then goes trips or two pair or perhaps nut flush draw, what's your play and why?
I'll tell you what I did after the responses...thanks guys the sniper

Tangerine 53 · Nov 4, 2010

Smells like AK, KQ or a flush draw to me. I'm folding

chipSMOKE · Nov 4, 2010

yeah a check raise , is somethin to always be cautious about . He most likely had a better hand than you knowing that we went all in with 3 players left behind him .

ThunderPT · Nov 4, 2010

Fold. He's either totally bluffing, has the nut flush draw and in this case you're only a slight favorite or you're totally crushed. So the question is: how often is he bluffing? I don't know anything about him, but I'd say the chances are very close to 0.

What was his stack size, btw?

Pascal-lf · Nov 4, 2010

chipSMOKE said:
yeah a check raise , is somethin to always be cautious about . He most likely had a better hand than you knowing that we went all in with 3 players left behind him .

There was no check raise.

Why did you minraise the flop?

TylerN · Nov 4, 2010

wheres the check raise at? or am i totally missing something. And why minraise flop?

cracksniper · Nov 4, 2010

His stack was similar to mine, there was no check raise, post flop he bet out 800 I reraised him 1600 i.e. twice his bet to see exactly were I stood, he then went all in the reraise was to see if he had any king less than KJ

Martin · Nov 4, 2010

Think I would've folded too, especially since you min raised to see where you were. Suspicious though, if he had a strong hand or big draw why go all in? why not call & see what the turn brings. almost as if he was scared of what might have come and have a hard decision to make later. Either that or he was really strong and wanted you to think that he was scared of what was to come.

I know what I mean even if you lot dont

Pascal-lf · Nov 7, 2010

cracksniper said:
His stack was similar to mine, there was no check raise, post flop he bet out 800 I reraised him 1600 i.e. twice his bet to see exactly were I stood, he then went all in the reraise was to see if he had any king less than KJ

1. Don't raise to find out where you are. Put your opponent on a range and either raise for:
a) value
b) protection
c) as a bluff

2. Make your raises bigger. Minimum raises give him plenty of odds to call and catch up.

3. Even ignoring the above two points, you raised to see if he had a better hand than KJ, and he reraised you all in. Is this not him telling you that he has a better hand?

scokyl - why not call with a big hand or a big draw? Because big hands get value from draws which they don't on later streets because people realise they then have less chance of hitting their flush/bluffing, and big draws can miss and so getting it all in retains fold equity when they have no showdown value and even when they do get calls they have very good equity.

Theblueduce · Nov 8, 2010

from my perch..never a good idea to go all in with 1 pair....Wait for a better hand.

galt · Nov 9, 2010

cracksniper said:
His stack was similar to mine, there was no check raise, post flop he bet out 800 I reraised him 1600 i.e. twice his bet to see exactly were I stood, he then went all in the reraise was to see if he had any king less than KJ

Well your reraise was to see exactly where you stood and it worked. You saw. Seems to me the problem was that you did not have a plan for after you reraised. Don't raise without a plan.

playerk7 · Nov 9, 2010

your either crushed there or in really good postition, you have to know the players your playing agains in this hand to make a play like that, i would fold to an all in if i didnt know my opponent that well

cracksniper · Nov 10, 2010

Ok guys thanks for all the responses...here's my thinking, a) a limited reraise to see where I stood get me the answer cheaply, that was my plan. If he had flat called the reraise then I would see what he would have done on the turn and if a check came to a scare card I would have probably bet out. As it was by him going all in he was polarising his range to either a complete bluff or he's got me crushed. Personally I find it difficult to call an all in without at least two pair which is what I put him on, either that or trips. I folded the hand and lived to fight another day. Finally, I do not see anything wrong with a minraise in this situation if I'd have 3bet him I think the situation would have been the same only I'd have lost more chips or even worse been pot committed with the worst hand...thanks the sniper

Madsaac · Nov 10, 2010

Pascal LeFiscal said:
1. Don't raise to find out where you are. Put your opponent on a range and either raise for:
a) value
b) protection
c) as a bluff

2. Make your raises bigger. Minimum raises give him plenty of odds to call and catch up.

3. Even ignoring the above two points, you raised to see if he had a better hand than KJ, and he reraised you all in. Is this not him telling you that he has a better hand?

scokyl - why not call with a big hand or a big draw? Because big hands get value from draws which they don't on later streets because people realise they then have less chance of hitting their flush/bluffing, and big draws can miss and so getting it all in retains fold equity when they have no showdown value and even when they do get calls they have very good equity.

Could I please ask why a reraise to find out where you are at is the incorrect play?

If you call the 800 and your hand doesn't improve on the turn and villain bets, do you just call again and spend more than the 800 that you would have lost from the reraise? Or just fold with top pair?

And what about rasing preflop, would that then give you a better idea of villains hand? KJ raise here or chuck em?

manofthehour · Nov 13, 2010

Yeah you should fold this hand because he raised preflop showing he had a good hand and then reraised you after flop. Unless hes a donkster and has been raising every hand, you should fold this one.

ph_il · Nov 14, 2010

Don't limp in with marginal hands OOP, they usually get you in trouble.

Min raising doesn't do you much, no does it give you any information. It just inflates the pot and you give the opponent odds to call and see a turn. Either raise him more there if you think you have the best hand and get value for it. With top pair, decent kicker, I'd opt to just call the bet OOP, then re-evaluate on turn.

midgetfactory · Nov 15, 2010

i agree with philty, limpin in with marginal habd always gets you into situations like this.

cracksniper · Nov 16, 2010

So midgetfactory, what would you do with a hand like this if it's flat called around to you? It's certainly not good enough to raise with, and too good to fold, I limped in to see a flop, just unfortunate for me the EP limper seemed to hit his hand more than mine hence the AI. I think the call was certainly the right thing to do pre-flop.

Pascal-lf · Nov 16, 2010

Madsaac said:
Could I please ask why a reraise to find out where you are at is the incorrect play?

If you call the 800 and your hand doesn't improve on the turn and villain bets, do you just call again and spend more than the 800 that you would have lost from the reraise? Or just fold with top pair?

And what about rasing preflop, would that then give you a better idea of villains hand? KJ raise here or chuck em?

Because you are throwing chips away.

Raising pre is good because you can squeeze to steal the pot and you've still got position, but it's live and people don't tend to like folding which makes squeezing not as good as it would be online really...I think I limp too much live though so raising is probably a good plan.

When you reraise on the flop you reraise for value from weaker kings, flush draws, straight draws (24), and some mid pocket pairs like JJ/TT who don't believe that you have the king.

EP has taken a very strong line, but we need reads to be able to put him on a range. If he has not played many hands and tends to limp strong hands then AA/KK/AK/KQ are all in his range, along with high flush draws, and versus that range we are:

Board: Ks 5s 3c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.074% 15.24% 07.83% 53877 27672.00 { KJo }
Hand 1: 76.926% 69.10% 07.83% 244209 27672.00 { KK+, 55, 33, AKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, KJs+, AKo, KJo+ }

a 23% dog.

On the other hand, if he has been limping a lot and raising his premium hands then we can give him a much wider range:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

555,390 games 0.006 secs 92,565,000 games/sec

Board: Ks 5s 3c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.853% 51.71% 06.14% 287190 34122.00 { KJo }
Hand 1: 42.147% 36.00% 06.14% 199956 34122.00 { 55, 33, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KcQc, KdQd, KhQh, KcJc, KdJd, KhJh, KcTc, KdTd, KhTh, Kc9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc8c, Kd8d, Kh8h, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kh7h, QsJs, JsTs, Ts9s, 9h8h, 9s8s, 8s7s, 7s6s, 43s, K8o+ }

Which we are ahead of.

So if he's tight we raise to get value from his flush draws, although we need to be fairly confident about how aggressive he is with them. If he's loose, we raise to get value from his wide range of weaker kings and low flush draws

forsakenone · Nov 16, 2010

I call because i am a calling station and don't believe people, i think that's why i struggle with MTTs.

HipHopStoner · Nov 16, 2010

I would definetly fold right away.

Madsaac · Nov 27, 2010

Pascal LeFiscal said:
Because you are throwing chips away.

Raising pre is good because you can squeeze to steal the pot and you've still got position, but it's live and people don't tend to like folding which makes squeezing not as good as it would be online really...I think I limp too much live though so raising is probably a good plan.

When you reraise on the flop you reraise for value from weaker kings, flush draws, straight draws (24), and some mid pocket pairs like JJ/TT who don't believe that you have the king.

EP has taken a very strong line, but we need reads to be able to put him on a range. If he has not played many hands and tends to limp strong hands then AA/KK/AK/KQ are all in his range, along with high flush draws, and versus that range we are:

Board: Ks 5s 3c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 23.074% 15.24% 07.83% 53877 27672.00 { KJo }
Hand 1: 76.926% 69.10% 07.83% 244209 27672.00 { KK+, 55, 33, AKs, AsQs, AsJs, AsTs, As9s, As8s, KJs+, AKo, KJo+ }

a 23% dog.

On the other hand, if he has been limping a lot and raising his premium hands then we can give him a much wider range:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

555,390 games 0.006 secs 92,565,000 games/sec

Board: Ks 5s 3c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.853% 51.71% 06.14% 287190 34122.00 { KJo }
Hand 1: 42.147% 36.00% 06.14% 199956 34122.00 { 55, 33, As9s, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, KcQc, KdQd, KhQh, KcJc, KdJd, KhJh, KcTc, KdTd, KhTh, Kc9c, Kd9d, Kh9h, Kc8c, Kd8d, Kh8h, Kc7c, Kd7d, Kh7h, QsJs, JsTs, Ts9s, 9h8h, 9s8s, 8s7s, 7s6s, 43s, K8o+ }

Which we are ahead of.

So if he's tight we raise to get value from his flush draws, although we need to be fairly confident about how aggressive he is with them. If he's loose, we raise to get value from his wide range of weaker kings and low flush draws

Thanks.

Thats the sort of info that will improve my game. A little in depth ATM but I'm sure it will make sense soon

all in over a reraise

cracksniper

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