all in on nut flush draw

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cracksniper

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played the DTD nottingham £300 over the weekend, ran really deep and I am in the last 14 players well into the money. Each table had 7 players on it and the blinds were 20000 and 40000 with a running ante of 1000. I have roughly 1m chips. I am in middle position with 4 players behind me and I get A3d I raise to 90000 trying to steal but the sb and bb both call, ok i might hit big anyway.
The flop comes king high with two small diamonds, the sb and bb both check to me and I go all in. I think this is standard as I want to win the pot as it is big now and I have two ways to win either a fold or i hit. Both the sb and the bb have roughly the same chips as me. After a short while the sb - a young kid -calls the bet and the bb folds. He holds K10o and I don't hit and go out, i feel dissapointed as this is the second time I have gone out around this position and the kid went on to win it and won £36000! What do the CC regulars think?
 
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cracksniper

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Sorry the antes were 5000 by then my mistake
 
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Stowie101

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Why not check and try to see a free card? If the SB makes a bet, you can just call or re-raise and see what happens. If he calls or re-raises you, then you know to slow it down after the turn if you miss. I'm no pro by any means, but I've busted many cash games/tourneys over-betting nut flush draw and it doesn't come. Better to try to see another card for cheap, in my opinion.
 
jazzaxe

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You are not the favorite on a draw. It might work if the play of the opponent indicates that he would be a likely fold. A3s only works as a flush and you are odds against filling on river. It's all about getting that fold.
 
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cracksniper

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you do have the ace as well 9+3 = 12 possible outs making it pretty much 50/50
 
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4evertilted

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Close to a coin flip vrs pair with no ace kicker. Standard tourney play, but you have to remember that at the end of tourney's everyone their has taken risks to get there and are more apt to get it in there on hands like this.

Your play looks like a semi bluff, you could just make it 200k and see what happens , at this point in any tourney you want to avoid coin flips vrs stacks same and bigger than you. The goal is to get to the FT and make the top 4 where the real money is.
 
NvrBlufn

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As played, I am against the all-in shove...

I think this is an ICM decision but I don't want to do any of the math and we don't know all of the payouts. Just remember every chip is worth something in dollars and cents. Er, pounds sterling and... something else! :p

I often make silly mistakes late into tournaments. I am seriously trying to get over myself here because it is high time for me to take one of these large, live MTT events down.

Figure out the ICM and use it as a learning experience. You'll never know if the chips you gave him in that hand helped him to win 1st place but you do know that it didn't help you, lol.

You should definitely take a line that has him beaten if you want to see him fold. AK is not going to make that kind of a shove there (it isn't going to fold either, btw--if that's the kind of hand your opponent has).

The shove is transparent, you're on a draw or a weak pair that his King beats perhaps. Whatever the case it looks like you wanted him to fold and you did, that's not good! Too easy for him to make the right play against you.

You need more information so fire off a large c-bet and make him squirm a little bit, then you'll have a better idea of where you stand. Get him to reluctantly call two streets and when you shove the river he will really think he made a bad decision going any further in this hand. Hopefully for you the :10d4: comes out next time and you switch roles, knocking him out and going on to win that precious prize money!
 
Mr Sandbag

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I don't like the all-in here. You could check here and get a free card, but that isn't really optimal since you'd be giving up control of the hand and can't really call a bet on the turn if it doesn't hit you and the pot odds aren't favorable.

I think 4evertilted had the right idea. Bet about 200k. I doubt you would get raised here. If he just calls, chances are he's checking back to you, in which case you can check and see the river. Taking this betting line gets you to the river for one bet of 200k rather than an all-in bet for all your chips.
 
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cracksniper

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I think ther other thing to consider is I think it is a poor call no matter what, I could have anything that is beating his cards, a ten kicker is so behind I asked my friend who has won a wsop bracelet and he said he would have never have called this bet for all his chips. in fact he would have 'mucked' in an instant.
 
wagon596

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Myself I don't think I would have shoved,, that's just me,,, I'm a real tight player.
 
Mr Sandbag

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I think ther other thing to consider is I think it is a poor call no matter what, I could have anything that is beating his cards, a ten kicker is so behind I asked my friend who has won a wsop bracelet and he said he would have never have called this bet for all his chips. in fact he would have 'mucked' in an instant.

I'd muck in an instant only if you were an obvious nit. If you had a loose image, the bet is rather transparent, like others have said, and would not be difficult to call. Ask yourself this: why would somebody shove with top pair and a good or best kicker? I only see weak players do this because they're afraid of a flush or straight draw. Otherwise, a strong player makes a reasonable bet and tries to get max value from his hand. Your all-in just screams of semi-bluff, medium pocket pair, or a missed flop entirely - all of which can be beaten by K10. If you aren't nitty, there are probably a lot more hands in your range that villain can beat than hands that beat him.
 
Beanfacekilla

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So you raise preflop. They both check to you (standard to check to the raiser). And you just ship it all in with a naked FD? A gross over bet right?

What do you think you are repping here? What hands are going to just ship here? Draws and weak hands.

Terrible play. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Next time try and make normal bets, or even take a free card and see the turn. Don't spaz out and spew off your stack with a gross over bet that could only be a draw or weak hand. People aren't stupid man. They weren't born yesterday.

The fact that OP thinks it was a horrible call by villain shows the inexperience involved here.....:congrats:
 
Bowman26

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So long as the board didn't pair I would check to see the free card before pushing. I might take a swing at it but not with my whole stack.
 
DrazaFFT

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I would lie if i say that i didn't do the same thing more then once... most of the time i end up same as OP did...

I absolutely agree with @Beanfacekilla, play like that just screams "SOMETHING WRONG"
 
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aznman08

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Why not check and try to see a free card? If the SB makes a bet, you can just call or re-raise and see what happens. If he calls or re-raises you, then you know to slow it down after the turn if you miss. I'm no pro by any means, but I've busted many cash games/tourneys over-betting nut flush draw and it doesn't come. Better to try to see another card for cheap, in my opinion.

this goes to what our table image is presented here. if we tend to have a strong tight image, betting is ok. FYI: based on the OP, we have position and its checked to us.

Frankly on the AI ship, 900 into about a 340k pot is a bit too much especially with a draw. A call by either opponent means we HAVE to hit the flush at worst.
 
SANDYHOOKER KY

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I agree with some of the other members, see a card jeeeez, you know someone holding Ks is going to call with that board, rookie or not. In the first place, a-3 is mighty weak suited or not. The flop just trapped you, i surely would not have shoved post flop, but would have checked, or called a reasonable bet and seen another card. I wouldn't have put villian on a steal, after calling your raise, and then shoving.After the flop, you had a 54.14% chance to win versus villians 45.86% chance. Not a flip, but pretty close. And i don't like flips at that stage of the turny.
 
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cracksniper

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ok I get it i ballsed up, but one more thing why would the villain want to risk his tournament life on a flip if he has put me on a draw? Even playing it wrongly i'm still a slight favourite, although I won't be doing something like this again. That is why I come on this site...to learn of you lot of experienced players.
 
Mr Sandbag

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ok I get it i ballsed up, but one more thing why would the villain want to risk his tournament life on a flip if he has put me on a draw? Even playing it wrongly i'm still a slight favourite, although I won't be doing something like this again. That is why I come on this site...to learn of you lot of experienced players.

Well he didn't necessarily put you on a draw, but he probably knew you were weaker than he was on the flop. Depending on your previous play, he may have put you on something like AQ/AJ or even a medium pair.

It's difficult to put you on a specific hand there, but what makes sense? It makes sense that you would NOT shove with top pair, two pair, or a set. The point is, most of your shoving range is probably beaten.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Well he didn't necessarily put you on a draw, but he probably knew you were weaker than he was on the flop. Depending on your previous play, he may have put you on something like AQ/AJ or even a medium pair.

It's difficult to put you on a specific hand there, but what makes sense? It makes sense that you would NOT shove with top pair, two pair, or a set. The point is, most of your shoving range is probably beaten.

I agree with this also. It just screams weakness to just jam like that. Just a range really that villain could put OP on.

And Mr. Sandbag is right, no made hand is going to ship it here. Only things that villain probably knows he is beating would shove in this spot.
 
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It's almost never correct to over bet a pot, especially on a draw. This is one of the most exploitable leaks I see at the micro and small stakes. By going all in you put your tourney life on the line a 4% dog. If he missed a 200k bet was getting a fold anyways. The smaller bet may also get you a free card on the turn since he's probably not proud of his kicker giving you 2.5 to 1 on a 2 to 1 draw and probably some implied odds when you do hit. Probably get a half pot call out of him at least.

My main point is "don't over bet the pot!"
 
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cracksniper

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Thanks to all the members that have been involved in my ?, i have truly learnt my lesson, thank you for the telling off. Nomadnative thanks for the telling 'its almost always wrong to over bet the pot' that will stick like glue from now on. Sandbag great comment and thanks to everyone that contributed. I will get there, not making excuses but it was such a long 3 day tourney and i'd played so well to get to that position and blew it. FFS
 
NvrBlufn

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It's difficult to put you on a specific hand there, but what makes sense? It makes sense that you would NOT shove with top pair, two pair, or a set. The point is, most of your shoving range is probably beaten.

I might shove with two pair, not gonna lie I have done it before. I think I had figured out at some point that this line was going to get me a call from my opponent, lmao! In this case you don't want the call so uhm.. yeah

You have been a really good sport cracksniper, you get mad props for posting your spew here. Don't feel bad mate we have all been there; many times!

Plus, just because I've been there before doesn't mean I won't go there again. My poker pistol goes spew spew s'pew... and then I have to reload :icon_rr:
 
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Ambushed

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I think shoving on the flop is exaggerated. Pot is around 400k and you have 900k behind. I would either check or bet around 200k and see what happens.
 
zveri666

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played the DTD nottingham £300 over the weekend, ran really deep and I am in the last 14 players well into the money. Each table had 7 players on it and the blinds were 20000 and 40000 with a running ante of 1000. I have roughly 1m chips. I am in middle position with 4 players behind me and I get A3d I raise to 90000 trying to steal but the sb and bb both call, ok i might hit big anyway.
The flop comes king high with two small diamonds, the sb and bb both check to me and I go all in. I think this is standard as I want to win the pot as it is big now and I have two ways to win either a fold or i hit. Both the sb and the bb have roughly the same chips as me. After a short while the sb - a young kid -calls the bet and the bb folds. He holds K10o and I don't hit and go out, i feel dissapointed as this is the second time I have gone out around this position and the kid went on to win it and won £36000! What do the CC regulars think?

With 2 other players in the hand I would definitely just check and see a free card. If i don't hit on the turn, id check or fold before the river. The only time I would raise like that would be if I had 2 over cards to go along with the flush draw. I've done what you did many times and the past and always feel bad when I get called and don't hit. As a result I refrain from making this move.
 
O

oooo

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You won't win a tourney in the begining, never! With that in mind, you should think twice on going all in with draws.
 
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