AK(preflop)-shove or fold

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pokeherfreak

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Ho, guys.
I've had to fold AK so many times preflop. You raise and your opponent reraises you. Call to see the flop and then fold it you miss or just go all in?
Does AK overall win more all ins than it loses?
Would you consider folding it preflop?
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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There is no one way to play.

You fold it sometimes, call sometimes, raise sometimes. It depends......

Lets say you open for3x UTG and get 3bet by an ultra tight and, when he is involved in a hand, agro player in MP. And he is called by a very good lag BTN. Do you really want to call OOP or re raise? I dont.

You raise UTG and called by a very loose BB with 3bet of 50% in the BB. Do you really want to fold? I dont.

And the list goes on. You cant just say "I do this with this hand" It will ALWAYS depend.....
 
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pokeherfreak

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The thing is in Zoom poker, you don't know your opponents. I showed AA so many times and got called with 88 etc.
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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Well, I dont play zoom so I dont know the dynamics. Is it 6 max or full ring? What stakes?

If you open and get 3bet, at micros, you can 4bet/call shove and be against worse a lot. If you 3bet and get 4bet/shoved on, same thing. But you never know. Without info on your opponent, you have to shoot in the dark.

But, again, I dont play zoom, so I dont know how agro the games are. Maybe it is best to 3bet/fold, or call a 3bet?? I hat calling AK OOP, so for me I would 4bet if I opened and get 3bet.

Do you have poker stove? You can think about ranges that 4bet shove at micros.

Vs 77+,ATs+,KJs+,AQo+, you are a 51% fave with AKo.

Vs same range with AKs you are 53%. So I guess it is safe to say that folding AK, suited or not, is probably too passive vs a random player. Of course, your position makes some difference here as well. You UTG vs UTG+1 will be a different dynamic than BTN vs blind etc.

Now, not everyone will shove that wide. Vs 99+,AJs+,KJs+,AKo you are, suited, about 50/50 and off suit you are a slight dog at 48%.....



Good luck.
 
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biaavia

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It depens of kind of poker, your stack, status of your opp... What ever... All in with nothing its not good idea)))))))
 
pescaofish

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Poker is not that easy, if there will be a rule for every hand things will be so easy, it will not be poker anymore.
It will depend on many things like position, action before you, profile of the players, etc. just hang around and you will find out. :deal:
 
cally

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Shove most of the time unless you have a tight read on your OPP holding the monster pair.
 
dbchristy

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I shove, and its a bad thing for me
 
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jsh169

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Tbh your asking how to play poker, there will be times when every play is the right one. To tell you when or what is impossible. Is your opponent playing differently than usual, how is the game flow, what about position battle. Also how deep are you the more shallow you are the more commited you are. In a nutshell you don't want to fold every time you miss, but what is the right answer to do can not be answered in a nutshell.
 
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Aaron Soto

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AK 45% equity
Vs.
Pocket Pair QQ-22 55% equity

Only reason a player is going all-in, is because he either has high Pocket Pair AA or KK or +equity against you such as Pocket pairs.

The only way AK is profitable in a preflop shove is against short stackers. 10-15bb deep. Because there range is looser than a deep stack. Even then, you are still playing by chance. Your only beating KQ, AQ, AJ, maybe A10 gets in there.

AK shove preflop, is almost always a negative expectation decision. Long run, it's not profitable.

Basically, if your only giving yourself 45% chance of winning a pot guess what. Long run. Your losing. Avoid coin tosses. They are non profitable decisions. AA, KK, QQ should be your only shove ranges. Let the rest of them lose there hard earned dollars.
 
Yermek

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AK is a good hand. I call and see the flop, but a lot depends on the stack
 
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jsh169

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AK 45% equity
Vs.
Pocket Pair QQ-22 55% equity

Only reason a player is going all-in, is because he either has high Pocket Pair AA or KK or +equity against you such as Pocket pairs.

The only way AK is profitable in a preflop shove is against short stackers. 10-15bb deep. Because there range is looser than a deep stack. Even then, you are still playing by chance. Your only beating KQ, AQ, AJ, maybe A10 gets in there.

AK shove preflop, is almost always a negative expectation decision. Long run, it's not profitable.

Basically, if your only giving yourself 45% chance of winning a pot guess what. Long run. Your losing. Avoid coin tosses. They are non profitable decisions. AA, KK, QQ should be your only shove ranges. Let the rest of them lose there hard earned dollars.

Your red line is going to be absolutely horrible, if your just letting everyone run over you. The higher you move up the more aggressive games get. I'm perfectly fine getting ak in preflop vs many villains. Your mentality I suggest you stick to full ring and stay away from six max.
 
orsino12

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As always the answer is "it depends".
For micro stakes, especially .01/.02 , there are a ton of maniacs so I'm comfortable shoving with A-K, especially if I would be out of position after the flop. Obviously it's not something to do to just take down the blinds, but if there is a raise and 1 or more callers...
I'm always amazed at just what kind of garbage people will call off their stack preflop with. Yesterday in a span of 10 minutes playing SNAP I got A-A 3 times and was raised into each time and decided "what the heck". Got called all 3 times (and went 3 for 3), the last time by 2 players. First time 7-10 suited called, 2nd time it was K-J offsuit, 3rd time was by 9-10 suited and K-K (flopped a boat on that one).
 
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my best advice ... trust your gut. I mean, ive seen Jack 2, and 8 3 beat big slick over and over again. If youre feeling it & your stack isnt too big, go ahead and have fun. Its pretty much a gamble either way.
 
K

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Where a third otvaracia best hand, but I think from my experience that the AK does not win often, and even worse is when you walk all season 27,93, 38, and then add AK and you lose against 27
 
orsino12

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While A-K isn't a crushingly dominating hand preflop, in all but 2 cases it will be a coinflip up to about a 70-30 favorite so in the long run it should win a bit more often than it loses when you get called (especially in micro stakes where loose players like any 2 cards, even though there it's only a 60-40 favorite), but what can tip the scales for shoving with A-K is you will win 100% of the hands when they don't call
 
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Rumme1

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AK play is largely dependant upon each individuals GOOD LUCK, when it comes to coin flips preflop. Yes, LUCK is a huge role in playing AK for huge bets or all ins preflop . Some players win more then 50/50 with it , others { like me} generally lose with it about 75 % of the time . In fact when I have AK vs a underpair, I lose most coinflips with the AK...and when I have the underpair vs their AK, I lose most coin flips with my underpair. This is one reason why I will never play high stakes NL holdem , and would rather stick to more skill oriented games like hi limit or pot limit 7 stud.

NL hold em, is very much a crapshoot, and if you dont have the ability to at least win 50% ..of your 50/50 hands, over the long term, then NL hold em will be a uphill battle to win consistent big money.

Keep in mind, that even though they call them " coin flip hands" or 50/50 hands...there is NO universal law that dictates every poker player will win those hands 50% of the time over the long run . Many players who run lucky, will win those hands on a higher percentage then 50% , and many players who run unlucky, will lose those hands much more then 50% . Any poker game that involves just 2 cards out of 7 cards, and you will be forced to put most or all your money in on just coin flip hands, is a game where luck plays a significant role , when compares to pot limit 7stud hi lo..or gin rummy..or other card games that have more skill and less coin flip decisions.
 
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AA, KK, QQ should be your only shove ranges. Let the rest of them lose there hard earned dollars.

Why are you advocating stacking off with QQ but not AK?

Let's say your opponent's shoving range is {QQ+, AK}, which is a fairly standard shoving range for an unknown opponent. Against this range, AK is dominated by only 6 combos:
- 3 combos of AA (since you block the other 3)
- 3 combos of KK (since you block the other 3)
It is flipping against 15 combos:
- 6 combos of QQ
- 9 combos of AK (since you block the other 7)
Thus AK is flipping against 15 combos and only dominated by 6 combos.

Compare this to QQ, which is dominated by 12 combos:
- 6 combos of AA
- 6 combos of KK
It is flipping against 17 combos:
- 16 combos of AK
- 1 combo of QQ (since you block the other 5)
Thus QQ is flipping against 17 combos and dominated by 12 combos.

So QQ is far more likely to be dominated in an all-in preflop scenario than AK is. That's what makes AK a better hand to go all-in preflop than QQ: it blocks out half the AA/KK combos that your opponent can have, whereas QQ only blocks QQ combos and leaves all the AA/KK possibilities still there.
 
payck007

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uz-King, especially suited - very strong starting hand in no-limit Texas Hold'em. However, if you do not get into the board, you will have just ace Sr. at showdown. That's why this hand like AK, creates a lot of problems in certain circumstances.

In this article we look at the important strategic aspects of the hand ace-king () in No Limit Texas Hold'em: the stack sizes, position at the table (absolute and relative), the trend of the game your opponents, etc.
Basic strategy game with an ace-king

The worst scenario for the drawing AK - multi pot with lots of limpers when you are out of position and hit the flop. Under these conditions, you should always throw his hand in response to aggression on the part of opponents.

AK does not apply to those types of hands that you would like to be in a multi sweat.

In fact, AK - hand draw, which you usually need to improve to win at showdown. At the same time in a given hand likely to improve to the best hand in hand, as any ace or king on the board will give you top pair with top kicker. This makes the strong hand of AK for drawing hand as long as you do not run into resistance from their opponents, as the pre-flop and in subsequent betting rounds.

The ideal situation for the drawing of the hand - when you take the initiative in view of the aggressive action preflop. Raise, especially when you're in position, will reduce the number of players in the pot. Ideally, when you are one on one with an opponent. If the flop your opponent will make a check, you can win the bank formed a simple continuation bet. If your continuation bet will be made the call, you will get an excellent opportunity to take a free card and see the river card without paying for it a penny, if your opponent checked behind on the turn.
As stack sizes affect the drawing of AK

Dimensions stacks (both your stack and stacks of opponents) play a very important role in the drawing of a hand like ace-king. If the size of the effective stacks (the smallest stack at opponents in the hand) is small, then the best solution before the flop with this hand will go for broke. In this case, there are two possible positive outcome.

If you are in a hand against a player with a short stack, you should try to go to all-in with AK on the flop.

Either the preflop raiser (plus callers) fold their cards, giving you the opportunity to pick up a decent size pot or your raise is called by - for example, with a dominated hand, or with a pair of Kings below. In this case, you will have the opportunity to see five community cards to try to improve before opening. This means that you will have a little less than 50% to win with this hand - your sweat equity will also increase, if the distribution will be dead money or a third player enters the pot, but will fall to your re-raise.

If you play at a table with a deep stack and you're holding AK pre-flop re-raise can give you valuable information about the strength of your opponents hand. For example, the opponent from the position MP raises to 3 BB, you reraise to 10 big blinds on the button. If your opponent will hand like AA or KK, then he is likely to want to do another re-raise.

Be careful if your opponent 3-bet is responsible 4-bet when playing deep stacks, as he may be pocket aces or kings.

However, with the type of the QQ pairs - pocket queens - and below, or on the other hand with an ace worse opponent is likely to make a call. You will not only get valuable information about the strength of your opponent's hand, you will also take control of the game before the flop, and the availability of positions will win the pot in when you miss the flop.
Game Trends opponents

Trends games of individual players and the dynamics of the game at the table in general, will also influence the drawing of AK. On the flop you can raise to isolate some of the weak player seated to your right. However, if the game went nits, then the best solution is to make a flat call (so-called call with a strong hand instead of reraising) - since flop will be clear whether there is somebody strong hand or not.

Another adjustment by opponents for "aggressive table" will be flat call from any position, if you know that an aggressive player behind you must cheer again, and then you will be able to deliver all-in in response to his re-raise, or pretending to. If we get a call, we will still be enough equity against a range of aggressive player - in addition to the dead money in the pot. This rally is possible only in those cases, if you know that your opponent after you reraise, in most cases, so you do not fall into multi sweat with his AK.

When the sale is yours gets too aggressive nature, a good rule of the hand ace-king, not particularly deep stacks - to be a player who will put all in the first, and do not call all-in. In the hands of ace-king nearly 50% equity to win the pair like QQ and below and about 30% against the pocket kings. However, if you are the player who last made a big bet, you will have an additional advantage - fold equity. The likelihood that you opponent will fold his cards, increase your profits from such a lottery.
Conclusions on the drawing of the starting hands AK

Good rally ace-king (AK) in No Limit Texas Hold'em includes all of the above factors combined with an understanding of how it all works. For example, a re-raise in position in order to determine your opponent's hand will make sense only against a competent opponent.

Against weaker opponents or against opponents with a short stack (stack of 20 big blinds or less), the best solution is to make a push. The combination of 'fold equity' with a chance of winning gives the drawing of such a positive
 
proud2Bwhack

proud2Bwhack

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Calling + drawing hand (AK IS A DRAWING HAND!) + OOP = bad poker
you will have to fold when you might be ahead on the flop too often when faced with a continuation bet from raiser. try and play AK from position.

Another unspoken problem is that AK is a really obvious hand, when the ACE or KING hits on the flop, QQ JJ 10's all shut down immediately, which is why... AK is a great hand to play in a non-raised pot. Very sneaky play. in a non-raised pot people play A-Xs, KJ, K-10s, and all kinds of garbage hands and AK dominates them all. perfect way to win a nice pot if ace or king hits on the flop/turn.
 
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Once again, we see how much luck is involved in these types of preflop hands in NL hold em . Lets say you are in the money in a toruney, and you are dealt QQ....and your opponent is dealt AK...you both have about the same amount of chips { lets say you are 20th in chips and your opponent is 19th in chips...with only 25 players left in the game} , and both have to play the hand all in preflop { which is typical play in this scenario] . You are basically staking your tounrey life, on another coin flip hand, which is reliant upon LUCK .

If you had the QQ...and you knew your opponent had AK...would you still play the hand all in preflop...how about if you had the AK, and you knew your opponent had the underpair...would you still play the hand all in preflop ?

It is these types of plays in NL hold em tourneys, that dictates how powerful the LUCK factor is. You will most likely be forced to play coin flip , hands that involve more luck then skill , where the money goes in preflop, and you just sit there and pray that you have good luck on the flop turn or river. In other words, the strategies involved on the flop turn and river, are completely erradicated due to the nature of having to play all in pots preflop.

In NL hold em, I have terrible luck with these types of hands , where supposedly you should win around 50% of the time over the long term, I only win around 28% of the time over the longterm. With that type of bad luck in coin flips, it become almost impossible to do good in NL tourneys. KK, is by far my worst losing hand in hold em. I constantly lose with it to bad beats by players bluffing with ACE/RAG...and hitting a ace on turn or river . It doesnt matter that I get my money in good with KK, preflop or flop agasint their ace /rag....they usually find a way to hit their bare ace and bust me.

Yes, there is skill involved in NL hold em, but if you want to be a big winner in that game, you better have good luck with coin flip hands , and your pairs in which your opponent only has 1 overcard to your pair . If you have continual bad luck in both of those scenarios, then NL hold em is gonna be a very tough game for you to beat for big money.
 
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cese1962

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In poker note that many people seek logical for all

In poker note that many people seek logical for all.
It has some truth but most of the time are so many variables to compare that you can not say that a pair of AA is good or is bad.
It all depends on your position, your opponents and other combinations of letters.
In the chess game that game for more than 40 years, there is a rule and the success of winning a game is 100% of your ability to think.
 
TeUnit

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think you should look at the stats of the villans left to act, if they are active 3bettors maybe vary your raise size.....you can raise smaller with the intent of calling a 3bet

and you can look at how often the villans fold to 4bet(just make sure you have enough hands to have an ample sample size)
 
acidburnfx

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AK is a strong hand, but is important observe the size of the stack of chips, the force of the your opponent and blinds levels to make a good decision.
 
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Amanda A

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went out of tourney last night with AK

AK can be really tricky. Last night I was in a tourney and in early position I raise with AK but I'm trying to play more small ball so I only raised 2 times big blind. I have 2 callers one is the big blind. Flop comes 5K5 BB checks and I raise one third the pot, one person folds but then BB goes all in. I call and lose when he shows a 5 (5,6). I though he had something like KJ and was trying to steal but he had trips and was being trappy when he checked. Did I mess up? The only thing I can think of is I should have originally raised more pre flop, maybe 4 times big blind and gotten the BB to fold 56, or I could have had the discipline to fold by high pair KK against an all in raise after the flop.
 
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