A2 though A5 better than A6 through A9

A

audacity

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4 years into Texas Holdem and I get to thinking, maybe someone can confirm if this makes sense to them ?

In that the Ace is special in that it can be 1 or 14? or 'highest value'?

To me, It can close the highest straight, or it can seed a wheel, so the way I see it - one single Ace can close a broadway.

In that no other card can function as part of a Wheel OR a Broadway (and this is the first time I have ever said Broadway, I had to look up the term for a high end straight, I knew Wheel though heh)? I am thinking that AFTER

AK AJ AQ AJ A10 ?

The NEXT most valuable combo is not A9...

But A5 onward to A4 A3 A2 - why? Because you get access to that potential Wheel.

I know there are books on this, I just haven't disciplined myself to read them but this really makes sense to me.

This also means A6 through A9 are well ? potentially less valuable than a KQ KJ K10 - this is ALL pre flop by the way.

Any thoughts on after AK AQ AJ A10- that A5 is next most valuable because you are tapping into that most unique offering Ace can bring for a Wheel?
 
NHequalsFU

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This thought process is not good. You want a better kicker at the start of the hand. I will take A6-A9 over A2-A5 any day of the week and the reason should be obvious.

A6-A9 isn't hugely better but is better none the less.

I would take that extra time to read the books/articles on hand strength.
 
Ducky7

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It is all relative but from an equity stand point A2-A5s does have better equity vs a lot of hands because like you say you can make a straight. Hands like A2-A5 can be opened from earlier positions to add some bluffs into your range and also give you better board coverage.

So in a sense you are correct, hands like A6/A7 are just not good hands and tough to navigate postflop as you hit a lot of middle pairs and end up in tough spots

This being said if someone for example jams the BTN with 10bb in a tournament you would rather than A8 than A2 because of the raw equity it holds, but the deeper you go the better A2 - A5s becomes and the weaker hands like A6-A8/A9s become
 
kraemer

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A click on the "odds Calculator" link here at CC helps...

Actually A2 - A5 are slightly better...
But the effect is minimal...
If You are up gainst KK the smaller kicker increases your
odds of winning from ~28% to ~29%
So most of the times this small difference will not affect
the decision if the hand is playable...
 
pepsilv

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I think every hand is good except that it depends on the position and blinds if I am not mistaken.
 
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JustSoPro

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The problem with A2-A5 is their is a lot of inverse equity with the hand(Cards you think make your hand, but give your opponent a better hand). You can hit the low side of a straight, but their will ALWAYS be a higher straight that is obtainable. You can hit top pair, but people seem to rarely fold aces at low stakes and will more than likely have a better kicker. You can hit two pair, but once again, your two pair will lose to any other Ax two pair. I wouldn't play A2-A5 unless they were suited as then I would have a hand that I can actually value bet with safely(flushes/bluff flush draws) rather than have to check/call the opponent down.
 
freddy66

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dude....really?

is apples better than oranges?why be in these spots where your playing these cards?i mean you talkin late game?outta position these cards shouldnt even be a question!
 
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audacity

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But I'm trying to evaluate a special circumstance value for Ace in that the Ace has a unique feature that it can be played either hi or low.

I would agree if just talking K as highest KA KQ KJ K10 and yeah K9 next down to K2

But K doesn't have the ability to become another value - '1' to form that straight.

So - on potential straight, I think the Ace has a special factor here statistically.

I am not sure how to compute statistics for Ace since it is different than all the other cards. But it seems to me things change with the ace and at A9 and below - seems A5 would be the next most valuable after A10 because it's where yet another straight can form, only possible with the Ace.

I struggle with these things heh- but glad to see all the other input / insights.
 
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A

audacity

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You reminded me heh- of some of my thinking last year and it was the same 'IF suited' then it has straight and flush potential indeed.

I might retract to that, but since I don't really play A6 to A9, eh, I figure I might as well go for A2 to A5 since I have that 'unique' ability of the Ace to get me that wheel.

In fact, I'm 'tempted' to say Ace is best - but not because of it being the highest card, but because it's the only card that has the flexibility to be two values. Heh, then again, that second 'bonus' value just happens to BE the LOWEST lol.

I do realize there is probably (is this the right word here - heh heh) a rock solid probability one can derive to answer this question.

Someone else said they would easily take A6 through A9 over A2 through A5, I still suspect that probabiltiy though isn't factoring in that Ace can also be = 1 as well as 13.

Welp - best games to all. Time for sleep
 
Tony Vayer

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I don't play with A2 and up to A10, the probability of a dream to street is about 32%, playing with A with a small kicker is the ability to understand poker. I cannot do this.
 
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I agree that A-5 might be slightly better than A-6 for wheel potential, but A-9 is definitely better than A-2.
 
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As many have said, a low kicker is a problem. Another thing is that with A2 - A5 is that you will not very often flop the wheel. The best flop you can hope beside from an ace (with a crappy kicker), is a gutshot draw and a overcard. And a gutshot is a crappy draw. You will probly not get odds to continue in most cases. Another thing is that this is usually not (for me) a god situasion to keep aggression going. Betting a flop with a gutshot is basicly a bluff in my book.

I would like to add that I dont mind raising with "weak" aces. But I will never do it for the potential weel.


My 2 cents
 
johnny tigre

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A2 to A5 are better tha A6 to A9 in a sense that it has a chance to hit a straight, but what if it missed? Your As gets kicked in the butt. lol
 
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Elvis

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I don't think A5 is better than A9 and higher.i know one thing for sure that when you play poker you must not count on aces to raise your winnings of pots.
 
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