A vs flush draw

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DonkeyH3AD

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hello!
I have a question how You are playing flush draw on A board or example flop :ad4::7c4::4c4: and You are holding :kc4::qc4:
You are raise in first position and You are getting re-rasie... what now?
 
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RickAversion

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Did you learn to calculate pot odds and pot equity?
You have 9 outs. Look up Rule of 2/4.
 
zarzar78

zarzar78

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It depend on the reraise amount, and the pot equity.

A reraise in this case can be explainesd by a set, so you have to calculate just 8 outs ( A of clubs can make a full house for the oppenement ).
Also you oppenement can got A x of clubs, so you have to read correctly the play before calling.
 
suby_rafael

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You have to take into account a lot of situational factors in order to have the best chance of making the right decision in such circumstances.
Depends on the stack sizes, opponent's style of play - history if any, stage of the tournament, number of players in the pot, position.
Without all these info missing the best thing i can think of doing in this situation is : one of these two, wouldn't matter which one.
1. 5bet.
2. Fold.
 
tothbopo

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You are making this hand the main factor for the rest of this tournament call and see river I would say depending on history as I assume you are behind now
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

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You are making this hand the main factor for the rest of this tournament call and see river I would say depending on history as I assume you are behind now

What about the turn card then ? :confused:
 
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hffjd2000

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It depends but in general, I fold.
 
btc87

btc87

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There is no need to make the pot big on the flop or stack off with 9 outs at max.
 
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Darkblue

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Depends on the reraise amount. He may have two pair or set. If he is aggressive he may be on straight draw .He might also be on flush draw.
If it is lot more than pot size , then dont chase for flush , also you don't have A club. I would fold in this spot. If I have ace club, its a different play.


hello!
I have a question how You are playing flush draw on A board or example flop :ad4::7c4::4c4: and You are holding :kc4::qc4:
You are raise in first position and You are getting re-rasie... what now?
 
H

hardin

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Like the others said, you need to learn how to calculate pot odds and equity in this spot. Lots of articles on this topic.

Here is a post I replied to on another forum where a guy had AhKh and flopped the nut flush draw and had questions about how to play it:

So the rules of 2 and 4 are very useful at the table. They give your approximate odds but become inaccurate after I believe 12 outs.
  1. Use 2 on the flop if you are not being put all-in or calling an all-in
  2. Use 2 on the turn always
  3. Use 4 on the flop if you are being put all-in or are calling an all-in
So you use them to find your estimated equity. Once you have that calculated, you then compare it to the pot odds you are being offered.

If you are all-in, your equity should be greater than the pot odds you are being offered for it to be +EV. I say your equity should be larger because if it is equal or a bit under the pot odds it is -EV. Some people would say call if it is equal, but the rake taken after the hand makes it a bit -EV.

If you are not all-in you also need to consider the effect of implied odds. Implied odds state you can call now a bit -EV but expect to make up for that on later streets if you hit your draw and villain will pay you off.

Example Hands Equity
So with both hands you need to consider all of your outs. You are only assuming your flush will win, but an A or K may win as well. So lets assume for simplicity sake that you need the flush to win and an A or K won't win (in reality they are partial outs, if not full outs in some cases). So we are assuming you have 9 outs like you said for the flush.

Example 1: All-In
So you have approximately 36% equity in the hand, i.e. chance of making your flush draw. But you have to call $1.94 into a $2.07 pot. Since you have to call approximately 50% of the pot, this is a fold. Your draw equity must be greater than the pot odds to call.

Example 2: Not All-In
Again, you have approximately 18% equity in the hand, i.e. chance of making your flush draw on the turn. Villain donks and gives you 2:1 (33%) pot odds. Well, this is not good pot odds; however, if you think you can make up for that 15% difference in equity on the turn or river to get good pot odds because villain will pay you off, then you should call. If villain is a NIT and will just shut down if the flush hits, then its a fold.

Getting back to your A h K h
So with your hand, on the high end, we can say you have as many as 15 outs to win if an non-heart A or K hits. If that is true,then in hand one with the all-in you should call because with 15% outs you have 54% equity in the hand. Just remember, with 14+ outs you will be happy to call because you are greater than a coin flip favorite to win the hand in the long run.

We will be talking about poker math, pot odds, equity, implied odds, etc in the next installment of the Mastering Holdem Basics series.

Hope this helps clarify some things for you.
 
PokerFunKid

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Sometimes i raise and hope for a fold or call. A raise here is indeed a situation to think about. If it is a huge raise against my chip stack i may fold. With a small stack deep in the tournament i would go all in. But, i also often choose to check here, hope for a fold or call. Then keep the pot as small as possible and hope for the flush. If you hit the flush, check and hope he falls for your trap, then re-raise.
 
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Blue_Fossil

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If you are playing against me, go ahead and call. You'll connect. :)
 
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Ben_Dover

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what's the pot? It's critical to size your bets against the pot if you're going to consider draw odds.

Was there a pre-flop raise? Did you open at 1BB and re-raise was 2BB? Or, did you open at 2BB and were re-raised to 4BB?

Those are quite different odds situations but you're probably faced with paying a minimum of half-pot to play and that's too much for a single-street flush draw with normal pot-odds. (Hint: for any one-street flush draw you want around third-pot as a max cutoff bet for perfect draw-odds of 4:1).

Maybe you can pay more and hope for implied odds but that's a slippery slope. What are the stacks? Plus the third suited card on the board isn't exactly stealthy so you might not get paid off. Also, you're in a sucky early position. Maybe you should've checked and hope for a free card or third-pot bet.
 
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