4 2 rule for outs

Hey. The 4 2 rule is just an estimate and technically designed if one is going to see the river. However, can anyone see how this can be exploited for playing on the turn only?

Let's say I am not going to see the river as I am not drawing and didn't hit the flop (let's say I am holding AJ and the flop is 37Q rainbow). So facing a villain's bet and unsure if I should fold or not. I would be inclined to use the x2 outs counter and if I am getting decent pot odds, why not.

I know most of you will bring up the lack of information ( position, bb etc ) but it's not a real scenario just to see how I can use 4/2 in another way.

Big thanks

The 2 and 4 rule isn't designed for use only if you are going to see the river necessarily, you can use it to work out the chances making your hand on the next street ie. you can use it to work out chances of hitting your hand on the turn (multiply outs by 2), even if you intend to fold if you miss and they shove.

In your AJ example you could use the 2 and 4 rule I suppose. On a 37Q rainbow flop only the aces should be counted as outs, so you have 3, probably slightly less than 3 actually as villain might have AK, AQ, A7, A3 which would beat you.

sorry but can someone explain what the 2 4 rule is?

Uh yeah - the rule of 2 is for an individual street (usually the turn but if you miss that can be applied individually to the river also).
The rule of 4 is applied when you are looking to see both the turn AND river (which usually means an all in on your part before the turn).
Put the together and it is the rule of 2 AND 4.

Mandy - count your outs to what you think is your made hand and multiply by 2 or 4 (depending on the application) to come up with a close approximate estimate of the percentage/chance you can hit that.
Common example you have 2 hearts and there are two hearts on the flop. You need one heart to make your flush. There are 9 hearts left that have not been exposed.
2 x 9 is 18 or about 18% chance a heart will come out on the turn.
4 x 9 is 36 or about 36% chance a heart will come out if you commit to seeing the turn AND river.

interesting, thank you! ill try to use this when im at the tables.

Not to hasty.. When I see a draw popping up at 2NL and there is 0.12$ in the pot, when I bet 0.08 or 0.10$ almost no player folds, however they have never the odds to call (36% vs +40%)

kazzzman said:

Not to hasty.. When I see a draw popping up at 2NL and there is 0.12$ in the pot, when I bet 0.08 or 0.10$ almost no player folds, however they have never the odds to call (36% vs +40%)

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Well yeah, then there is 2NL...
But we had not yet gone into pot odds versus 2-4 rule. The 2-4 rule is still valid but all by itself doesn't give you a clue what you should be doing with that information until compared to pot odds - and even then.... (for Mandy)

I think the rule is 4 and 2. With the turn outs multiplied by 4 and the river by 2. Not the reverse.

GOIVIT said:

I think the rule is 4 and 2. With the turn outs multiplied by 4 and the river by 2. Not the reverse.

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Huh? Each street individually is 2 and the turn and river COMBINED is 4. No doubt.

I've always thought that you the 4X after the flop for the turn and the 2X after the turn card for the river. Maybe we are all saying the same thing though.

Once you play enough and have studied the odds, you basically know what they are from your head for each street and each situation.

I would suggest people use one of the many odds calculators to repeatedly plug in hands they are involved in (or others) to get a great feel for the proper odds.

Here is one I have used for both NL and Omaha

FWIW:
Flush Draws are 2 to 1 against making after 'four flush' flop
Making a Set on the river is 22 to 1

Yeah, but the thing about odds calculators is that they aren't very useful when you are playing because they take too long to operate when you are in the middle of a hand making trying to make a decision. It would be better to just memorize the outs percentages. You can find those in any old poker book.

pcgnome said:

Yeah, but the thing about odds calculators is that they aren't very useful when you are playing because they take too long to operate when you are in the middle of a hand making trying to make a decision.

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yeah I meant that you would check them after then hand to get a feel for your true percentage

pcgnome said:

It would be better to just memorize the outs percentages. You can find those in any old poker book.

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Good idea also

pcgnome said:

I've always thought that you the 4X after the flop for the turn and the 2X after the turn card for the river. Maybe we are all saying the same thing though.

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It is 4x after the flop IF you are going all the way (shoving) because 2+2 = 4 (each street being 2). It is NOT 4x for the turn by itself.

Hold on I'm confused now...and I use this rule frequently...you have two cards left to make your hand after the flop (the turn an river) so you would multiply by 4 seeing as there are 2 cards left to make your hand...after the turn your chances of making your hand are cut in half since only the river is left...therefore you multiply by two...right?

triplesyxx said:

Hold on I'm confused now...and I use this rule frequently...you have two cards left to make your hand after the flop (the turn an river) so you would multiply by 4 seeing as there are 2 cards left to make your hand...after the turn your chances of making your hand are cut in half since only the river is left...therefore you multiply by two...right?

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Correctumundo! Look at the big brain on Trip!
But again multiplying by 4 means you are going all the way. None if this "okay, I'll see one more card." if you are only seeing one more then it's the 2 rule.
The big thing to take away is if you don't hit on the turn your odds just took a big hit and adjust accordingly (if you have the opportunity).