3betting for value

I've been wondering around this for some days.

Assuming all my PF 3bets are for value, should I 3bet only the villains that can't really fold to a 3bet? I've been trying different things and I can't really draw any meaningful conclusion.

For example, let's say I have a regular at the table that opens from MP. I'm BTN holding AKs. My default is to 3bet. He folds 3/4 of the time. So I take 5,5BB in the hands I 3bet him with and when he doesn't fold I'll most likely be facing a pocket pair which will suck if I don't hit the flop.

I've tried to flat IP (I will always 3bet from blinds since I want the initiative). All is easy if I hit the A or the K. If I hit a FD or a gutshot (and I have the overcards) it's easy to raise and a regular will often fold... but... when I hit nothing I'm usually facing a cbet. Should I float here? 2NL regulars usually keep firing, so...

I'm a bit lost on 3betting with hands like AK AQ. I feel that I'm loosing value when I 3bet and that I'm not sorting it out post flop when I don't. Any opinions?

It depends on how strong their range is and how often they fold to double-/triple barrels.

Not sure about the AK example but there is certainly no rule that we should always 3bet AK against everyone. Pretty good concept of the week i've just read tonight (for the second of third time - as i hate AK lol )

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78/micro-stakes-full-ring/cotw-ace-king-kicker-640680/

I dont seem to 3bet AQ a lot myself, definitely not a fan of doing it against tighter players, against someone who calls 3-bets a lot like a fish then yeah i'm happy too, especially IP. But like Baudib said, like everything in poker there's like a continuous spectrum of ranges and frequencies (player types i suppose we call them) so maybe post some examples of hands you've 3bet or flat called and see if theres any major mistakes?

I think everyone is a bit obsessed with 3betting really and over complicates the matter, im definitely no 3betting genius but surely the main thing to consider is exactly the same as the 3 reasons we bet?

3bet the nit with more air hands and take advantage of them folding to 3bets too much. just flat AQ vs a nit as there not going to be calling with worse and def not 4betting worse so we turn it into a bluff which we then would rather have hands at the end of the spectrum (53s, A2s etc) and so we 3bet them with air

fold AQ vs. the nit

I'd 3-bet AQ only vs. loose players who open from late position.

You should consider flatting AK/AQ in some of those situations just to keep dominated hands in that you can own on A/K-high boards.

RVladimiro said:

Assuming all my PF 3bets are for value, should I 3bet only the villains that can't really fold to a 3bet? I've been trying different things and I can't really draw any meaningful conclusion.

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Think more about what value means.

When you raise a hand for value it means that villain will call with worse. If he dosent the raise wasnt for value.

So if we assume all your 3bets are for value, we dont need to worry about his fold to 3bet because that assumption means he calls with worse hands regardless of this stat.

So if you raise AK and we assume this is a value raise then the thread ends here, because if its a value raise then he is calling with AQ, AJ KQ, AJs etc etc

I think what you need to be concentrating on is simply, how wide does someone have to call MY 3bets for AK to be a value raise, because if you are 3betting someone who only calls 3bets with QQ+ then AK was never a value raise in the first place.

Does that help? Just think more about what value means.

Yes it helps since it changes the perspective.

Instead of worrying about what villain's fold with I'll be more aware of what villain's call with since if they are calling with their strongest range then my 3bet is not for value and I turned it into a bluff.

That's about it right?

RVladimiro said:

Yes it helps since it changes the perspective.

Instead of worrying about what villain's fold with I'll be more aware of what villain's call with since if they are calling with their strongest range then my 3bet is not for value and I turned it into a bluff.

That's about it right?

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Yes

If someone raises with 77 and you 3-bet with AK, is that a bluff or a value-raise?

AK is not a favorite so I guess it's a bluff but neither we or the villain knows what the other has.

If you have 77 and I have AK in position, I'm going to win more than you.

baudib1 said:

If someone raises with 77 and you 3-bet with AK, is that a bluff or a value-raise?

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If someones range were 77+ AK (4.8%) you wouldnt 3bet AK because ovet half their range would legitimately continue.

I know what your saying about the power of raising and taking down a hand on a later street, but if you think about it, this is something you rarely do against a range that AK isnt ahead of preflop.

With the case of the hand 77 we dont want 77 to be the bottom of his calling range we want it to be the middle of his calling range in order to take him off hands on later streets. This is basicaly the principle behind flatting polarised ranges and collecting cbets.

Trying to bluff people of weak PP by flatting AK isnt very profitable. Thats simply because the occasionally spike sets and if they raise all PP then some of those PP will be strong. IN order to balance a range, only 1/3 of it needs to be for value. Where pushing people off small PP does become valuable is when they have a ton of other stuff in their range that is weaker than a pair. Because now, instead of pushing them of 5 or 6 hands (30 combos) you can probably push them off 120 combos or more

Also look at what happens postflop if someone cbets into you with a PP (and their range is mostly PPS) you are calling hoping to spike.

Now consider a wider range that includes some non PP hands, you are calling with the best hand more often than you are behind (AK is the nut non paired hand) and have the opportunity to spike if you are behind.


What you have to remember is that at 2NL people arent usually 3betting light and call too wide. Most of the multistreet plays revolve around people raising light and having the ability to fold weak hands.

If I had AA in the BTN and you were 100% SB, you would win more than me. But that's besides the point I guess.

What are you trying to say? That position (and skill) makes a hand more or less valuable?

EDIT: x-posted with Stu.

RVladimiro said:

What are you trying to say? That position (and skill) makes a hand more or less valuable?

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Yes it does.

However the lower the SPR i.e. a 3bet pot reduces your skill and positional advantage and therefore makes card advantage more important when 3betting for value.

Finding someone with a range that AK is behind is reasonably tough. There are people who play like 20/4 or 7/6 though and if you want to flat or fold against those people I'm all for it.

Still, you're not in bad shape against those ranges, it's not until you get down to people raising like 3% that you're really an underdog. If someone is tight enough to only raise like 6% they're probably tight enough to fold JJ and worse pairs.

And if they're that tight I'd rather 3-bet AK and flat with KK+. The problem with AK is extracting value from pocket pairs postflop. There are plenty of textures on which we can bluff midpairs; the real problem is how do we get QQ to pay us off when we outflop them?

It's not like having an overpair, our hits are out in the open. So the answer is, AK is essentially a semibluffing hand. It's like having a flush draw and overs on the flop vs. someone who is going to fold when we make our flush.

We're going to play better with a low SPR and even better if all-in preflop. Flatting vs. ranges that have a ton of Ax/Kx is a nice idea and it can work out well in a lot of cases, but honestly it's rare to flop a dominating pair -- if you're against AQ, it's more likely the flop comes Q-high than A-high.

It works to our advantage to keep AA/KK in our range so that AQ isn't going to bluff us off a rag board.

baudib1 said:

Finding someone with a range that AK is behind is reasonably tough. ...................

Still, you're not in bad shape against those ranges, it's not until you get down to people raising like 3% that you're really an underdog.

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When I was playing 10NL the most common 3bet stat was 3%

baudib1 said:

And if they're that tight I'd rather 3-bet AK and flat with KK+. The problem with AK is extracting value from pocket pairs postflop. There are plenty of textures on which we can bluff midpairs; the real problem is how do we get QQ to pay us off when we outflop them?

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Its not going to be a problem when villian shoves all in pre and has us on the wrong side of a flip is it?

baudib1 said:

We're going to play better with a low SPR and even better if all-in preflop. Flatting vs. ranges that have a ton of Ax/Kx is a nice idea and it can work out well in a lot of cases, but honestly it's rare to flop a dominating pair -- if you're against AQ, it's more likely the flop comes Q-high than A-high.
.

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If you are against AQ its more likely the flop will miss you both and he will bluff the flop isnt it.

I thought we were talking about 3-betting, not facing a 3-bet.

There are plenty of spots I'd be happy to just flat or fold AK facing a 3-bet especially if the choice comes to 4-betting cold or flatting OOP.

Stu_Ungar said:

If you are against AQ its more likely the flop will miss you both and he will bluff the flop isnt it.

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Certainly it is, which is why letting him retain lead in the hand is probably going to be a mistake.

If you want to say there's merit in keeping the pot small and floating a lot of flops, then I'd agree.

baudib1 said:

I thought we were talking about 3-betting, not facing a 3-bet.

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Oh crap, sorry, for some reason I have changed from talking about 3betting to being 3bet. Sorry

Stu_Ungar said:

If you are against AQ its more likely the flop will miss you both and he will bluff the flop isnt it.

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It depends on what the action is and how deep stacks are, but usually, no it's not a problem. We're going to be conceding some small edge in a 43-57 or 45-55 or 48-52 or something, but with the dead money it's usually going to be OK.

I think it's a bigger problem when we let hands we flip with shut us off from 40% of our equity and don't let us see all 5 cards and/or don't stack off when we hit.

In some tournament situations we might be better off using a stop-and-go or go-and-go for more fold equity.

baudib1 said:

It depends on what the action is and how deep stacks are, but usually, no it's not a problem. We're going to be conceding some small edge in a 43-57 or 45-55 or 48-52 or something, but with the dead money it's usually going to be OK.

I think it's a bigger problem when we let hands we flip with shut us off from 40% of our equity and don't let us see all 5 cards.

In some tournament situations we might be better off using a stop-and-go or go-and-go for more fold equity.

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There is hardly any dead money in the pot preflop. If you think 10BB is worth raising for then why not flat planning to raise any flop? He will cbet 100% and that means there is even more dead money in the pot.

10 BBs is a lot.

Reraising flops unimproved is probably not going to be a good idea; when we flat there's not a whole lot we can represent whereas preflop we can represent the nuts. If you want to flat to bluff flops I'd rather have a random hand than something that is going to have a minimum of 25% equity or have them drawing to 3-6 outs when we're ahead.

So beyond flatting AK vs. the hypothetical 2 NLer whose range is mostly pps what plan of action are you advocating and what's your 3-bet range going to be?

baudib1 said:

10 BBs is a lot.

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Not when you have to risk so much to collect it .. you cant fold AK once you get 4bet yet you are almost always crushed.

baudib1 said:

So beyond flatting AK vs. the hypothetical 2 NLer whose range is mostly pps what plan of action are you advocating and what's your 3-bet range going to be?

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My 3bet value range is dictated by his calling range. If he dosent call with unpaired hands I beat, I dont 3bet AK as its a value hand. However if he is this tight with calling 3bets, Ill 3bet a ton of small suited cards as a bluff as they have fairly decent value postflop as they are very concealed when you hit. Same applies to small PP. So my value range would be AA/KK and everything else would be as a bluff.