3-bet? When to make one, and when to call one?

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teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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As a beginning player, I can say that 3-betting is probably the least covered topic in any beginning strategy book or article. Especially considering that most beginning strategies focus on pre-flop play, it's surprising that this topic is hardly mentioned.

I understand the very basics: 3-bet for value or 3-bet light. At the micro stakes, 3-betting is mainly just for value.

But suppose I hold AQ in a low stakes game. If I don't know much about my opponents, with a deep stack and all that, should I be strongly leaning towards folding vs. a 3-bet? I guess we should be talking about this more generally...

What kind of hands would I need to call a 3-bet? Is it ever a good idea? My guess is 4-bets are reserved for AA and KK... so without those holdings do we give up?

With that kind of aggression, it seems that the aggressor can easily C-bet the flop... this will put us in a bad position, so it seems suboptimal to just flat call a 3-bet. (we'd be out of position, often miss the flop... and we likely could be up against an overpair, so floating doesn't seem right...) Not to mention the pot will be larger than usual.

And then...

When do we make a 3-bet? Against what types of opponents? What size stack? This seems even trickier...

I play a home game weekly with a bunch of guys who know nothing about poker- they just play for fun and don't study in their free time. With this crowd, they seem to only 3-bet with AK... if its not that, it's JJ or QQ. I found this to be because they are afraid of playing these hands on the flop...

With KK or AA, beginning players naturally tend to slow play. These hands are also easier to play (generally) so they are comfortable seeing a flop... they have a plan. What are your thoughts on this? (have you found this to be true with beginning players?)

I often find it's interesting to examine the most natural play for beginners, why it feels natural, and if there are any benefits to doing it. I also bring it up because I myself don't know what to do with AK... if im facing a fish, who rarely raises pre-flop, I can already tell they have some kind of ace... would I flat call? or do you always 3-bet for value if you think they will call?

Sorry for the long post, but 3-betting is an interesting concept to me, and I just have no idea how to approach it. Thanks in advance!
 
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Flsnookman

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IMHO 3 betting pre flop is a good way to determine your opps strength. Also keep in mind that position means a lot to good players. I may 3 bet from the button with ATC just because of the advantage of position. I don't mind flatting with certain hands that can beat pre flop monsters (suited connectors, small pairs etc) because if I hit I may stack my opponent. Good luck.
 
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Great thread idea but far too many questions. Everything is dependent on opponent, what your rep is at the table, who's acting behind/before and further down the spiral you go. As for your initial question about what to do with AQ, why not 4bet with it? Do you know that your opponent only 3 bets with KK or AA? They have really polarized their range if that's the case. Would they auto fold to a 4bet and you take the pot right there? Play your opponent on what you know about their play not necessarily about what your cards show.

If you're willing to do the work and study to get better at poker you're definitely in the right place. I've been here since January and have learned exponentially (and I still suck! Lol). As for playing a fun game with your friends have at it but I would recommend playing some micro tables with real money to get a feel for others who like you want to take the time to study and better their game.
 
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teh_colonel_saigon

teh_colonel_saigon

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Sorry, I should have made a far more general thread about 3-betting. But I feel I have so much to say- I have a lot of observations and thoughts about the game but I'm not always sure if they are correct!!

I do play microtables, and the 3-betting there is often with a wider range. With my friends, I consider their play to be the most natural (what comes to mind without any side study of poker.

I guess I'm not sure what my mindset should be facing a 3-bet. It sets the tone for the whole hand, and often this scares me out of playing. Calling seems like such a bad idea OOP without aggression and probably a worse hand... but always folding to 3-bets is exploitable.

Likewise, I'm not sure what my mindset shold be when making 3-bets. Wouldn't I want to keep in worse Ace-X hands if I'm holding AKs? AA and KK make more sense to 3-bet with, to play a better pot and isolate another player.
 
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thatgreekdude

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Sorry, I should have made a far more general thread about 3-betting. But I feel I have so much to say- I have a lot of observations and thoughts about the game but I'm not always sure if they are correct!!

I do play microtables, and the 3-betting there is often with a wider range. With my friends, I consider their play to be the most natural (what comes to mind without any side study of poker.

I guess I'm not sure what my mindset should be facing a 3-bet. It sets the tone for the whole hand, and often this scares me out of playing. Calling seems like such a bad idea OOP without aggression and probably a worse hand... but always folding to 3-bets is exploitable.

Likewise, I'm not sure what my mindset shold be when making 3-bets. Wouldn't I want to keep in worse Ace-X hands if I'm holding AKs? AA and KK make more sense to 3-bet with, to play a better pot and isolate another player.

Fold out your marginals to a 3bet, at microstakes it's almost always for value, you don't want to be continuing with hands like AJ/10 sometimes even AQ OOP, facing a 3bet because it's too likely we're dominated as well as playing OOP. I'd say calling any pair facing a 3bet is fine if your deep enough to make set mining profitable, overpairs will pay you off when you hit, AK plays well against most players 3betting range but make sure you pay attention to there 3b% some people literally only ever 3bet AA/KK. As for when to 3bet it should really just be for value, or when you think you have an edge on an opponent post flop and can isolate him.
 
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What thatgreekdude said. I would also recommend going over the the cash forum and catching up on the "Polished Poker Volume 1 Study Group" thread. There's a ton of invaluable information in there.
 
suby_rafael

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If you are in position and you know if someone is not going to 4bet you unless they have monster holdings pre flop then you can 3bet just about anything that's dealt to you, more so in cash games. There are a few variables involved like if there are any callers already, if any then how much, what are their style of play.

Usually the more people in the pot, the narrower your 3bet range should be. If there is simply one then it is easier to isolate. most probably i would pick late positions for such plays - cutoff or button. You don't want to be in early or middle position and 3 betting light because then people will start calling you in position and also the chances of running into big hands increases.

Also you have to be careful and pick the right moments and not overdo it because people will start adapting and play back at you.

You can call a 3bet with any pair, higher suited broadway cards especially in position and if villain has a higher 3betting frequency but you have to take into account the stack sizes. 4bets are not necessarily reserved for AA and KK but since you are a beginner i will advice you to stick will these hands for now.
 
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Tgen

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if you are on button or you defend against a lp steal then you can 3-bet a abit more , hands like 22-88 or even 67s-QJs , these hands are semibluffs but its usually profitable even at micro to 3-bet them under those circumstances , other than that you want to mainly 3-bet AA-JJ , AQs perhaps AQo too but i dont 3-bet it often , against a 3-bet you want to call or 4-bet very tight oop , if you suspect 3-bet light then you can try a 4-bet with hands like Ax or Kx , on position you can call looser , hands like suited broadways are good start to improve your calling range.
 
Kimpel17

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3-betting is good against loose players who may have a history of folding to any 3-bets. It can establish the strength of your hand and also outline that of your opponents. It can also be for value with AA AK KK, etc. Calling a 3-bet is good if you are in position- you don't even need a premium hand because it is possible to check-steal on the flop. (Opponent has AK on a JT8 board, for example). If you are out of position with a marginal hand making a move you may want to 4-bet to establish the betting lead.
 
magicius

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Well you are kinda wrong :) 3bet light is most used since most micro players are prone to folding there,put fold to 3bet in your stats if u already didnt...
As for calling 3bet range it really depends... I use same range as for opening... Now in some spots i could fold weaker part of range but that depends on opponent and position...
As for when to 3bet i use it when on btn/sb/bb since in micros btn will always raise even with crap... Most og time they fold,but if they 4bet without AA or KK i would fold it...


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magicius

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3-betting is good against loose players who may have a history of folding to any 3-bets. It can establish the strength of your hand and also outline that of your opponents. It can also be for value with AA AK KK, etc. Calling a 3-bet is good if you are in position- you don't even need a premium hand because it is possible to check-steal on the flop. (Opponent has AK on a JT8 board, for example). If you are out of position with a marginal hand making a move you may want to 4-bet to establish the betting lead.
i think you are wrong... 3 bet is most effective against nits,than tags and in end lags...
nits will think about is their hand strong and wont risk too much so they will fold most of time...
as for lags
if you hold AK and 3bet laghe hold crap like A9 and he call flop comes A T 9...what would you do than? cbet and he jamms what than?

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