Would you fold this KK?

Alaercio da Rocha · Aug 1, 2019

Master Regional League
I confess that after the increase of villain I suspected that he had AA and thought about giving up but my chips were already few and gave up many hands because it was just coming trash but it is complicated to wait so long ... and come across AA but that's it. If I suspected that the villain held AA would fold the KK?

PokerStars, $0.22 + $0.03 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

swest6911 (UTG): 3,457 (17 bb)
regis negão (UTG+1): 3,652 (18 bb)
Marc2772R (MP): 4,262 (21 bb)
jcxmendes (MP+1): 3,806 (19 bb)
teamsilex (CO): 6,054 (30 bb)
MayaraGA95 (BU): 7,956 (40 bb)
alaercio (SB): 2,280 (11 bb)
danyelrichard (BB): 3,900 (20 bb)

Pre-Flop: (300) Hero (alaercio) is SB with K♦ K♠
swest6911 (UTG) calls 200, 1 fold, Marc2772R (MP) raises to 600, 2 players fold, MayaraGA95 (BU) calls 600, alaercio (SB) 3-bets to 2,280 (all-in), 2 players fold, Marc2772R (MP) 4-bets to 4,262 (all-in), 1 fold

Flop: (5,560) T♦ Q♥ J♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (5,560) J♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (5,560) 4♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 5,560

Showdown:
Marc2772R (MP) shows A♥ A♠ (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 73%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

alaercio (SB) shows K♦ K♠ (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 27%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

Marc2772R (MP) wins 5,560

Worse than if I had just called his 600, I would shove after the flop for the straight!

Index12 · Aug 1, 2019

If I suspect that my opponent had something better? Then yeah I’d probably fold KK. I’ve had too many premiums beaten by straights and what not in order to not do that.

nameless1537 · Aug 1, 2019

Index12 said:
If I suspect that my opponent had something better? Then yeah I’d probably fold KK. I’ve had too many premiums beaten by straights and what not in order to not do that.

Hell no! That would be a massively nitty fold, especially when you are short-stacked. Calling would have been acceptable if your intention was to slow play and go all-in on whatever action the villain took on the flop.

One standard 3BB raise would not have been enough information to guess that he had AA. You could have thrown in a pot-sized 3B and see what he did, but it would have left you pot-committed and you more or less had to shove on the flop. But you were short-stacked and out of position so the best play you could have made was to go all-in. You were just unlucky that villain had AA.

But don't let this outcome make you second-guess your decision.

Tigerchef · Aug 1, 2019

nameless1537 said:
Hell no! That would be a massively nitty fold, especially when you are short-stacked. Calling would have been acceptable if your intention was to slow play and go all-in on whatever action the villain took on the flop.

One standard 3BB raise would not have been enough information to guess that he had AA. You could have thrown in a pot-sized 3B and see what he did, but it would have left you pot-committed and you more or less had to shove on the flop. But you were short-stacked and out of position so the best play you could have made was to go all-in. You were just unlucky that villain had AA.

But don't let this outcome make you second-guess your decision.

I wouldn’t

fundiver199 · Aug 2, 2019

KK is almost never a fold preflop, and certainly not when stacks are short. The situation, where you can MAYBE get away, is you open KK UTG 100+BB deep at a full ring table like this, UTG+1 3-bet you, and now a nitty player in UTG+2 comes in for the cold 4-bet. But its a rare situation, and as a new player, chances are, you make less mistakes, if you just never fold KK before the flop.

Veritas · Aug 2, 2019

11bb in the sb with KK
no way to ever fold this in the early/mid stage when we are far from the money

fundiver199 said:
KK is almost never a fold preflop, and certainly not when stacks are short. The situation, where you can MAYBE get away, is you open KK UTG 100+BB deep at a full ring table like this, UTG+1 3-bet you, and now a nitty player in UTG+2 comes in for the cold 4-bet. But its a rare situation, and as a new player, chances are, you make less mistakes, if you just never fold KK before the flop.

not even 100+bb Deep I would fold it. we have 20% equity against AA and on the Long run it will be +EV because chances that we face AA are lower than 20%
I think KK should never be folded in a Tournament unless it's the Stone Cold bubble and you want to make the Money/win the sat.

frost234 · Aug 2, 2019

You took the right risk, because you had the shortest stack. I would play the same

fundiver199 · Aug 2, 2019

Veritas said:
not even 100+bb Deep I would fold it. we have 20% equity against AA and on the Long run it will be +EV because chances that we face AA are lower than 20%. I think KK should never be folded in a Tournament unless it's the Stone Cold bubble and you want to make the Money/win the sat.

In a 25c event like this I would also never fold KK preflop. Few people are that nitty in these events, and chances are you dont have reads on the Villain. The situations, where you can MAYBE consider folding KK pre, is full ring cash games and higher buyin tournaments. Like in this hand, where I did not get away, but it would have been a good decision to do so.

Veritas · Aug 2, 2019

fundiver199 said:
In a 25c event like this I would also never fold KK preflop. Few people are that nitty in these events, and chances are you dont have reads on the Villain. The situations, where you can MAYBE consider folding KK pre, is full ring cash games and higher buyin tournaments. Like in this hand, where I did not get away, but it would have been a good decision to do so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QVbCK00GcA

I barely Play cash games so can't say much About it. and my buy-ins are less than 15$
so i'm not playing the Level where you should think About folding KK pre

are you blackrain79?

if so, i read your book 'crushing the Microstakes'

was a nice read with a lot of good information

JJP · Aug 2, 2019

You are really short as you stated, I can't ever see folding KK here. A 20bb stack will open much wider than the 2nd best hand. You just got really unlucky, you played it correct

fundiver199 · Aug 2, 2019

Veritas said:
are you blackrain79?

No I am the guy, who played that KK hand, that he reviewed.

fickleberry · Aug 2, 2019

The lesson you need to learn is NOT whether you should fold KK, but that you should NOT be result oriented. The 3bet jam was 100% correct, just a cooler.

Alaercio da Rocha · Aug 2, 2019

Thanks again for the answers

fundiver199 · Aug 2, 2019

fickleberry said:
The lesson you need to learn is NOT whether you should fold KK, but that you should NOT be result oriented.

Exactly. Busting in tournaments is normal and expected, even when you get it in with premium hands like KK or AA, so its nothing to worry about. OP is playing 45 man SnGs, and even in the regular speed format these are fast tournaments. So if you bust, just buy into another one, its no big deal.

Pulsar · Aug 2, 2019

I wouldn't put KK in this situation and most likely would play about as well as You, but since I don't play very well, it seems my decision is wrong! Probably had to play as something more original,and maybe it was just an accident!

kbuinowski · Aug 2, 2019

yes I would fold poker KK if there is more than 3 people shoves all in. I even folded pocket Aces once or twice because there was 4 people went all in which i'm glad i did fold because i did not hit nothing and one of players flopped a flush.

vegasivanov · Aug 2, 2019

Alaercio da Rocha said:
Master Regional League
I confess that after the increase of villain I suspected that he had AA and thought about giving up but my chips were already few and gave up many hands because it was just coming trash but it is complicated to wait so long ... and come across AA but that's it. If I suspected that the villain held AA would fold the KK?

PokerStars, $0.22 + $0.03 - Hold'em No Limit - 100/200 - 8 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

swest6911 (UTG): 3,457 (17 bb)
regis negão (UTG+1): 3,652 (18 bb)
Marc2772R (MP): 4,262 (21 bb)
jcxmendes (MP+1): 3,806 (19 bb)
teamsilex (CO): 6,054 (30 bb)
MayaraGA95 (BU): 7,956 (40 bb)
alaercio (SB): 2,280 (11 bb)
danyelrichard (BB): 3,900 (20 bb)

Pre-Flop: (300) Hero (alaercio) is SB with K[emoji815] K[emoji812]
swest6911 (UTG) calls 200, 1 fold, Marc2772R (MP) raises to 600, 2 players fold, MayaraGA95 (BU) calls 600, alaercio (SB) 3-bets to 2,280 (all-in), 2 players fold, Marc2772R (MP) 4-bets to 4,262 (all-in), 1 fold

Flop: (5,560) T[emoji815] Q[emoji813] J[emoji815] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (5,560) J[emoji812] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (5,560) 4[emoji815] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 5,560

Showdown:
Marc2772R (MP) shows A[emoji813] A[emoji812] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 73%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

alaercio (SB) shows K[emoji815] K[emoji812] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 27%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

Marc2772R (MP) wins 5,560

Worse than if I had just called his 600, I would shove after the flop for the straight!

You are short and have a giant draw on the flop [emoji111] This is a post-flop shove in my book.

Bluffzone68 · Aug 2, 2019

Hi
I would not fold a KK.

For that matter I don't think anyone else would in that situation.

To write here and comment that you will fold is easy said than done.

Well played hero.

You played right immaterial of the result.

Good luck.

ASMautoneJr · Aug 2, 2019

Standing very difficult to read those plays !! KK still standing! AA

kostas1234 · Aug 2, 2019

i fold easy qq and kk those two hands burned me in many tournaments now i fold them for fun

Crispoker540 · Aug 2, 2019

It is a difficult decision, it also depends on the persecution you have of the other player

Misaki · Aug 2, 2019

fold KK on 11bbs? I would maybe consider it if all table would go all in and there were pay jump 1 million dollar

Rui Ferreira · Aug 2, 2019

It is very complicated but not giving up, although online comes a lot As, but pair of king is a very good hand only paid and saw the post flop if I saw that I was losing there would give up without remorse

fundiver199 · Aug 3, 2019

Crispoker540 said:
It is a difficult decision, it also depends on the persecution you have of the other player

Going all in before the flop with KK and an 11 BB stack is one of the most easy decisions in poker. There is nothing difficult about it, and it does not depend on anything. The only time, you might decide to not do it, is in a satellite tournament, where you already have chips enough to cash. In that situation more chips have no value, so why take any risk at all to accumulate chips.

VovanBaron · Aug 6, 2019

no fun - no fold KK 40bb and less at mtt,rejam and be easy!

Would you fold this KK?

Alaercio da Rocha

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Index12

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nameless1537

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Tigerchef

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fundiver199

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Veritas

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JJP

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