Would you call this river shove ?

Following is a real situation in a micro stakes tournament on poker stars.
we're approaching the money and BB = 12k
60 players left, I am in 13th position and get dealt A9 suited in middle position.
My stack is about 21 BB (250k) and I decide to bet 2BB (24k)
villain at my left has about 25BB (300K) and calls, all others fold, pot is about 80K at this moment.
Flop shows QQA rainbow, I check call villain who bets 30K.
Turrn shows 5 of clubs, I check, villain bets 36k, I call.
By now I feel quite confident villain does not have a Q.
river comes with 8 of spades, no flush or straight on board, I decide to go all in for about
160K (about 75% pot)
To my surprise, villain calls showing AJ unsuited.
In my opinion, this is technically a bad (wrong) call, since I was the original raiser and could have had AK, AQ or even QQ, also given the way that I played the hand post flop.

Would you have called?
If so, can you give me your technical reasoning as to why you would call?

Thanks for all comments and insights!

Although, you were the original raiser it was only a min-bet so you represented a weak hand pre and post-flop. Either, you didn't have anything (or a lower pair), a straight draw or a weak Ace. The villain had position and played it accordingly. Now, depending on how quickly they called your all-in, they could have thought you were bluffing (trying to represent the Q), or if you did have them beat, they were already pot-committed. Had you bet 3 or 4 BB pre-flop then you could have pushed them off AJo.
To answer your question.. in this position I could have folded but it would depend largely on how I noticed you were playing previous to this hand.

IM_FM said:

Although, you were the original raiser it was only a min-bet so you represented a weak hand pre and post-flop. Either, you didn't have anything (or a lower pair), a straight draw or a weak Ace. The villain had position and played it accordingly. Now, depending on how quickly they called your all-in, they could have thought you were bluffing (trying to represent the Q), or if you did have them beat, they were already pot-committed. Had you bet 3 or 4 BB pre-flop then you could have pushed them off AJo.
To answer your question.. in this position I could have folded but it would depend largely on how I noticed you were playing previous to this hand.

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hanks for your reaction!
Technically it was indeed a min-bet, but with the blinds being so high, almost everybody was constantly limping. even hands like AK, so from that perspective I do believe I made some kind of statement by betting 2BB pre flop (please correct me if I see things too much "small scale"), especially since I played bigger hands with the same min-bet before.
Anyway, on some poker training site I found the advise to never call such a shove with a pair on board unless you are sure to beat him with something bigger than a set/trips.. what's your thought about this advise?

GSMTH said:

Following is a real situation in a micro stakes tournament on Poker Stars.
we're approaching the money and BB = 12k
60 players left, I am in 13th position and get dealt A9 suited in middle position.
My stack is about 21 BB (250k) and I decide to bet 2BB (24k)
villain at my left has about 25BB (300K) and calls, all others fold, pot is about 80K at this moment.
Flop shows QQA rainbow, I check call villain who bets 30K.
Turrn shows 5 of clubs, I check, villain bets 36k, I call.
By now I feel quite confident villain does not have a Q.
river comes with 8 of spades, no flush or straight on board, I decide to go all in for about
160K (about 75% pot)
To my surprise, villain calls showing AJ unsuited.
In my opinion, this is technically a bad (wrong) call, since I was the original raiser and could have had AK, AQ or even QQ, also given the way that I played the hand post flop.

Would you have called?
If so, can you give me your technical reasoning as to why you would call?

Thanks for all comments and insights!

Click to expand...

Thank you for the hand you provided.

At this stage of the MTT, I would treat your preflop play as a steal attempt. A9 suited isn't going to play well at this point in the tournament, especially if your table dynamic was "tight play to make the money." Once you are flatted pre-flop, your goal should be to keep this pot small and extract value if possible.

The flop play: I don't mind the check call, but you need to realize that your opponent has given you 0 information about his range. Had you C-bet (which I think I prefer in this spot), you could possibly narrow his range a bit.

Turn: Now you have checked twice, and your villain has made the "I like that you called my flop bet, so I'm going to try to bet around the same amount again to get a call" bet, you need to be alert as to what is going on here. It is now likely that your opponent is strong. Proceed with CAUTION!

River: You are in a tough spot now, and honestly I do not like the river shove. I think you could lead small (as a blocker bet) or check to your villain for a third time. I think your reads were a bit optimistic and you ruled out a strong ace completely.

To answer your question regarding the villains play, I think he played this well. You are shoving weaker aces than his and also pairs that couldn't fold to the flop and turn bet and then just shove in desperation on the river. He has plenty of hands that he beats in your range and I think his call is certainly justified.

To summarize, I like keeping the pots small at this stage of the MTT. You could have conserved chips here, and waited for a better spot.

IM_FM said:

Although, you were the original raiser it was only a min-bet so you represented a weak hand pre and post-flop. Either, you didn't have anything (or a lower pair), a straight draw or a weak Ace. The villain had position and played it accordingly. Now, depending on how quickly they called your all-in, they could have thought you were bluffing (trying to represent the Q), or if you did have them beat, they were already pot-committed. Had you bet 3 or 4 BB pre-flop then you could have pushed them off AJo.
To answer your question.. in this position I could have folded but it would depend largely on how I noticed you were playing previous to this hand.

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NO NO NO.

Your preflop play with A9 from middle position near the bubble of an MTT should be either fold or min raise. Please don't 4x in this spot. Also, for what it's worth, AJ probably just shoves on your if you 4x pre.

If I had AJ, I would think you had a Q or were bluffing with KJ, K10. Your A9 is just a bluff so shoving for value is wrong. I don’t totally mind the shove as a bluff. But I would most likely check and evaluate on the river. He most likely check backs Ax and only bets with a bluff or a trips+.

GSMTH said:

Anyway, on some poker training site I found the advise to never call such a shove with a pair on board unless you are sure to beat him with something bigger than a set/trips.. what's your thought about this advise?

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Here is my paradox for the day:

"Avoid all advice that generalizes play and tells you to always play a hand a certain way. Do this all the time."

jordanbillie said:

NO NO NO.

Your preflop play with A9 from middle position near the bubble of an MTT should be either fold or min raise. Please don't 4x in this spot. Also, for what it's worth, AJ probably just shoves on your if you 4x pre.

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True, but then it would have been easy to fold the A9. Especially because many hands that shove could probably beat A9. No?

IM_FM said:

True, but then it would have been easy to fold the A9. Especially because many hands that shove could probably beat A9. No?

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True, but you're wasting 4BB in the process.

I prefer a fold pre.

noooo definetly fold..play safe to stay with money

thx all for your comments!
Although I don't consider myself a loose player, I gather from this that I should play much more tight when approaching the money, and all the idiots around me who are playing much more loosely and are getting away with it most of the time are just very lucky.

jordanbillie said:

True, but you're wasting 4BB in the process.

I prefer a fold pre.

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Agreed.. then it's settled

Raising more than 2.5BBs here is unneeded. Any hand that will call 2X will call/shove 4X.

Honestly, I did not like the way you played it. I probably wouldnt even have raised that hand in your position. If you are on the button, or possibly cut off, sure go ahead and raise with just about any 2, but early middle you should only raise premium hands, at least A10. Obv this is all generic, there are a thousand factors that could modify this behavior, just giving a sketch. In any case, you are not deep enough to try to be cute and represent a Q on the river, villain cant really fold at this point.

You have a very rich imagination, but it has a one-sided orientation. For example, you easily enter the game with a raise from an average position with hands like yours and even go all-in with a pair of aces and 9 as a kicker, but do not allow a call from AJ. You evaluate your two check-calls on the flop and turn as a sign of strength, as if demonstrating the presence in your hand of a lady or king with an ace or God forbid: QQ, KK, AA. So you think, and the villain, including myself, considered it a weakness, since the preflop raise for these hands is too small. In the first two cases, you would not really want to meet powerful resistance, and in the case of pocket overpairs, you would want to take it to the full. For my part, everything is logical, but I want to disappoint you, it all looks good until then, if you do not take into account the possibility of slow play on your part. I often do this, but do not recommend it. Usually it ends all-in and with two pairs, a straight or a flush from the villain. In my game I profess the principle that I do the right thing even if I do the wrong thing. You can reassure yourself that the opponent was wrong, but he either read you or he is simply a maniac. Good luck!:hmmmm2:

I think, you played preflop, flop and turn well. The interesting spot is the river, where pot is around 200k with 160k left behind in the effective stack. Here I check again and hope, he checks back or give me a really good price to call. Instead you moved all in, and I have to ask you why? Are you trying to get called by worse or fold out better? I dont think, you will acheive either of that very often, so in my opinion you are basically committing suicide here. As for his reaction your line basically only represents a bluff. So if I am sitting in his spot with AJ, then I am probably also making the call. If on the other hand I have a busted draw, then I am folding, and you win nothing extra.

GSMTH said:

Following is a real situation in a micro stakes tournament on Poker Stars.
we're approaching the money and BB = 12k
60 players left, I am in 13th position and get dealt A9 suited in middle position.
My stack is about 21 BB (250k) and I decide to bet 2BB (24k)
villain at my left has about 25BB (300K) and calls, all others fold, pot is about 80K at this moment.
Flop shows QQA rainbow, I check call villain who bets 30K.
Turrn shows 5 of clubs, I check, villain bets 36k, I call.
By now I feel quite confident villain does not have a Q.
river comes with 8 of spades, no flush or straight on board, I decide to go all in for about
160K (about 75% pot)
To my surprise, villain calls showing AJ unsuited.
In my opinion, this is technically a bad (wrong) call, since I was the original raiser and could have had AK, AQ or even QQ, also given the way that I played the hand post flop.

Would you have called?
If so, can you give me your technical reasoning as to why you would call?

Thanks for all comments and insights!

Click to expand...

Thank you for your post. Villian probably assumed the same range as you did. He probably put you on KK,JJ. Unfortunately you got outkicked but I would play more reserved at this point in the tournament with one pair type hands. Be aggressive with the nuts
Not top pair. Good Luck


Good Luck To All

The kicker was weak initially. You decided to transform your hand into a bluff on the river. It might have been the only chance to win. But the enemy did not believe it. This means that he has read you.