Should I have called?

ghOst · Dec 22, 2014

So I'm dealt AJ of diamonds. I have a huge stack so I'm trying to chill and wait for the premium hands for a bit. I run into this hand and I was a little confused so I mucked preflop. Would you?

Results came out that I would've won but I don't know how I felt...the blinds were still low here.

WPN, $12 Buy-in (200/400 blinds, 50 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools by CardRunners - Hand Details

Hero (BTN): 22,734 (56.8 bb)
SB: 7,167 (17.9 bb)
BB: 14,492 (36.2 bb)
UTG+2: 2,495 (6.2 bb)
MP1: 8,210 (20.5 bb)
MP2: 1,719 (4.3 bb)
MP3: 7,396 (18.5 bb)
CO: 3,320 (8.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A

J

UTG+2 folds, MP1 raises to 1,600, 2 folds, CO raises to 3,270 and is all-in, 3 folds, MP1 calls 1,670

Flop: (7,540) 3

J

4

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
Turn: (7,540) A

(2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: (7,540) A

(2 players, 1 is all-in)

donkcentralFF · Dec 22, 2014

If you call here your almost always gonna be way behind against 2 opponents..

horizon12 · Dec 22, 2014

With the stack size only call when CO shove , CO range here very lose around 20% top range or more...No 3bet because we nothing not know about first raiser....

If we call and MP1 shove only fold , this mean we are already behind against 20bb jam , because too much risk of losing 50% of stack , after fold stay 48bb.. Also have position, you can see that will do MP1...

About blinds same situation if someone shove , only fold , but with AJs you must call jam CO....You'll be ahead of the range push CO...

Very often will be fold MP1 after call BTN, only not fold top range...

Ducbim · Dec 22, 2014

I think you've made a good fold with AJs. You don't have to worry about the shortstack all-in as he had only 8BB left, but you have to think about the SB, BB and the original raiser still have chance to act behind you. MP1 made a 4x raise to open the pot, that indicated strength and I think it is wise not to put big part of your chipstack to a marginal situation like this.

fubarcdn · Dec 22, 2014

I would definitely fold here pre flop.
You are at best in a flip position since it was raised in early position which is an indication of strength.

teepack · Dec 22, 2014

I have a hard time folding that. I probably would have shoved to try to get the third player out before he has a chance to call. Make him decide whether his tourney life is worth it or not. The only person who can do any real damage to you is the BB.

That being said, I don't think a fold was a bad play either. You protected your chip stack. How did you make out in the tourney?

KUN_AGUERO_KROOS · Dec 23, 2014

I think ur just mad cause u made a boat on the river. Like "oh, i wish i were a donk for a second" but folding was the correct play.

hffjd2000 · Dec 23, 2014

As it turned out, you should have won when all community cards came out.

But the problem here is, you are underdog preflop.

teepack · Dec 23, 2014

I don't see how risking about 12 percent of your stack when you are well above the average to go up against a player who is short-stacked and likely making a desperation play is a donk move. AJ suited is a very strong hand. Chances are good that this guy is shoving with not a real strong hand (any Ace or pocket pair) or maybe even something like KQ, meaning you've got a decent shot at being ahead. Given what you are risking and your current stack, I don't think calling would have been a bad move. I also don't think shoving would have been a bad move either in an effort to scare everybody else out of the pot and to try to isolate it down to a one-on-one. If you're not going to play AJ in that situation, when do you play it? Are you only playing AK, AA or KK?

What did the other two players have?

bredstik · Dec 23, 2014

Agree with the move to fold here.

Poker Orifice · Dec 23, 2014

You shoulda gone allin obviously. You woulda had full house!!!

horizon12 · Dec 24, 2014

Poker Orifice said:
You shoulda gone allin obviously. You woulda had full house!!!

There is one problem hero not the superuser or telepath

iiHunt · Dec 25, 2014

Depends on how the cards have been hitting for you. I personally would have folded as well due to the fact if you 3b the other guy will most likely shove on you.

the_wonk · Dec 25, 2014

i fold. your hand is a little better than MP1's opening range probably, and had CO not jammed i would have probably played for MP1's stack with AdJd. but when CO gets in there too you need to be good against both.

horizon12 · Dec 25, 2014

ghOst what hands had CO and MP1 ? I wonder what range of hands has a first raiser...

Everybodylovesdeuces · Dec 29, 2014

horizon12 said:
ghOst what hands had CO and MP1 ? I wonder what range of hands has a first raiser...

yes for me it all depends on the range of the first raiser and what his folding range is. A call is probably the worst option because unless you know him to be super passive, he is probably coming over the top of you. So if he is pretty nitty but willing to call aip with almost his whole range then you should fold. If you think there is a good shot to push him off the hand, shove and get him out and go up against the ss.

ghOst · Dec 30, 2014

teepack said:
I have a hard time folding that. I probably would have shoved to try to get the third player out before he has a chance to call. Make him decide whether his tourney life is worth it or not. The only person who can do any real damage to you is the BB.

That being said, I don't think a fold was a bad play either. You protected your chip stack. How did you make out in the tourney?

I think this one took me to 2nd

ghOst · Dec 30, 2014

teepack said:
I don't see how risking about 12 percent of your stack when you are well above the average to go up against a player who is short-stacked and likely making a desperation play is a donk move. AJ suited is a very strong hand. Chances are good that this guy is shoving with not a real strong hand (any Ace or pocket pair) or maybe even something like KQ, meaning you've got a decent shot at being ahead. Given what you are risking and your current stack, I don't think calling would have been a bad move. I also don't think shoving would have been a bad move either in an effort to scare everybody else out of the pot and to try to isolate it down to a one-on-one. If you're not going to play AJ in that situation, when do you play it? Are you only playing AK, AA or KK?

What did the other two players have?

I think MP1 had K10s and CO had something like some bull like 98off

horizon12 · Dec 30, 2014

ghOst said:
I think MP1 had K10s and CO had something like some bull like 98off

As I said above, call preflop was fine and correctly, and fold if first raiser shove....it is the optimal line..

Marcwantstowin · Dec 30, 2014

horizon12 said:
As I said above, call preflop was fine and correctly, and fold if first raiser shove....it is the optimal line..

Totally agree with Horizon. If you are playing against a all-in shove with 8 BB and 1 call then I would defo call, with the big stack following you it would not be a good idea to shove all-in just in case he woke up with AA or KK and re-raised you all in, then I see how it goes on the flop. as it turns out on the flop you are probably holding the best hand, but as others have said, you need to see how the the original raiser plays.

I dont think AJs is a bad starting hand specially as there only 8 players left? How many get paid? As I think others will be thinking about this before they play too aggressively with air?

Sorry to disagree with the majority, but that is what makes it such a good game!! Gl all.......................................

ghOst · Jan 6, 2015

teepack said:
I don't see how risking about 12 percent of your stack when you are well above the average to go up against a player who is short-stacked and likely making a desperation play is a donk move. AJ suited is a very strong hand. Chances are good that this guy is shoving with not a real strong hand (any Ace or pocket pair) or maybe even something like KQ, meaning you've got a decent shot at being ahead. Given what you are risking and your current stack, I don't think calling would have been a bad move. I also don't think shoving would have been a bad move either in an effort to scare everybody else out of the pot and to try to isolate it down to a one-on-one. If you're not going to play AJ in that situation, when do you play it? Are you only playing AK, AA or KK?

What did the other two players have?

I totally understand what you mean here. I was tanking a little thinking if I DO hit an Ace, can I call a bet on every street? And after that call from MP1, not sure if I can call his shove on a missed flop. I felt like i was about to donate....but i think 12% wouldn't hurt, right?

GDBPoker · Jan 9, 2015

Ducbim said:
I think you've made a good fold with AJs. You don't have to worry about the shortstack all-in as he had only 8BB left, but you have to think about the SB, BB and the original raiser still have chance to act behind you. MP1 made a 4x raise to open the pot, that indicated strength and I think it is wise not to put big part of your chipstack to a marginal situation like this.

Is MP1's 4x raise actually strong? Without any info on the player I would assume that this is actually either/or, that they would be raising any of their range anywhere from 2x to 5x, which I have only seen super weak players do. If they had tight stats Id be worried, and I'm only starting to play MTT's but people with tight stats don't raise 4x.

Sorry been wanting to ask a question along these lines and decided to piggy back.

Oh, and I also would have folded

AtiFCOD · Jan 9, 2015

Depends on the players. If they are fish or if the original raiser is a LAG player and you think he just want the blinds...you can call. Normally with regular players yeah it's a fold with this stack.

MediaBLITZ · Jan 9, 2015

You're the dominant chip leader here. This gives you the luxury of being able to call and know you will still be the chip leader, even if you end up folding to a shove. It also gives you the luxury of being able to fold and wait for a better spot. Don't beat yourself up about this. You had options and you decided to stay away from the fireworks.

But a call IN POSITION would not have hurt too much, would it? MP1's 4x raise is a little fishy, isn't it? Just says go away I don't want to go to a flop. CO range is wider than normal since he's short stacked. This one is kind of set up to jump in with AJs - if one had a mind to

Ambur · Feb 18, 2015

For me it is push fold situation, calling option for me does not exist situation like this (i might would have called when MP1 stack would be twice as he have)! And decision weather to shove or fold is made based on table dynamics and ofc image of the MP1 player!

Should I have called?

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