Preflop mistake or not ?

poker stars, $4.10 Buy-in (75/150 blinds, 15 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

The villain is 17 - 17 over 6 hands. Didnt have much info since i just joined the table. Seemed to me that a short stack wouldnt raise hands lower than TT+ AQ+. Yet i couldnt fold AJs IP and raising seemed like only shoving into a better hand. I thought if he had any Ax Kx he would shove to maybe get some folds. Should i fold this pre ?
I want to say i am more of a cash game player but enjoy to play tourneys as they relax me and i might make that transition which is way i will post more tournament hands.
Also did i make a mistake on the flop shoving over his bet with TPTK.
I would be asking this question in a cash game as it is certanly the right play given the SPR on the flop.
Thank you.
Also sorry for posting the thread here. Just saw the hand analysis sub-forum. Wont happen again.

SB: 3,551 (23.7 bb)
BB: 3,820 (25.5 bb)
UTG+1: 5,126 (34.2 bb)
UTG+2: 2,937 (19.6 bb)
MP1: 2,193 (14.6 bb)
MP2: 4,062 (27.1 bb)
MP3: 2,261 (15.1 bb)
CO: 3,581 (23.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): 2,431 (16.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with A J
2 folds, MP1 raises to 337, 3 folds, Hero calls 337, SB folds, BB calls 187

Flop: (1,221) 9 J 8 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets 559, Hero raises to 2,079 and is all-in, BB folds, MP1 calls 1,282 and is all-in

Turn: (4,903) 3 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: (4,903) J (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: 4,903 pot
Final Board: 9 J 8 3 J

What did villain have? I would say you didn't make a mistake pre however you made your mistake on the flop which you stated, shoving on flop is basically shoving pre, you're only shoving into a better hand or draw, which will get snapped giving the situation. Id call the cbet and see the turn let my opponents action determine my play, this is speaking from a cash standpoint. From a Tournament standpoint depending on how close I am to the bubble I would probably fold to any bet on the turn.

So what if you're shoving into a draw, then you are favored depending on the strength of the draw. I don' think you did anything wrong and I would presume you won the hand??

Villain had 99. It cant be a mistake showing TPTK in about 1 SPR pot from a cash standpoint. Its just a matter of how you want to get the chips in.

razzor94 said:

Villain had 99. It cant be a mistake showing TPTK in about 1 SPR pot from a cash standpoint. Its just a matter of how you want to get the chips in.

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What limits do you play in cash games? (Online) I agree with the play in a tournament format however I would prefer to see the turn. I don't see a reason in shoving in that spot in a full ring cash game unless I see the turn. The way I see it you got your $/chips in with one of the few hands that you could actually beat. Your opponent made a mistake.

In these situations I prefer shoving because is the most unexploitable move. But ok let's say that I would have called as well.The board is pretty wet flush draw + straight draws.Is so hard to proceed here with just top top because you can get beaten in the two future streets. I have lost many times in same situations!!

akmost said:

In these situations I prefer shoving because is the most unexploitable move. But ok let's say that I would have called as well.The board is pretty wet flush draw + straight draws.Is so hard to proceed here with just top top because you can get beaten in the two future streets. I have lost many times in same situations!!

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Agree 100%

PostFlopMaster said:

What limits do you play in cash games? (Online) I agree with the play in a tournament format however I would prefer to see the turn. I don't see a reason in shoving in that spot in a full ring cash game unless I see the turn. The way I see it you got your $/chips in with one of the few hands that you could actually beat. Your opponent made a mistake.

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I play 20NL at the time.
We are talking about cash games yet i would hardly ever be in this situation in a cash game.
First of all i would never be in a cash game with less than 100BB.
Ofcourse i would just call the flop if were both 100BB deep.
Its crazy to shove the flop in lets say 4-5 SPR(stack to pot ratio) when your opponent would never call that overbet shove unless he has you beat.
When the SPR is 2 and less i am automaticly pot commited and i am getting it in with all my overpairs TPTK open ended straight draws, FD etc.
So showing on the flop with both of us pot commited is going to make him pay off with all his overcards, FDs, SDs, TP and some hands that beat us as well.
What concerns me the most is should i just jam preflop with AJs with only 13-14BB to a what seems to be a REG MP 2.2BB raise ?

razzor94 said:

I play 20NL at the time.
We are talking about cash games yet i would hardly ever be in this situation in a cash game.
First of all i would never be in a cash game with less than 100BB.
Ofcourse i would just call the flop if were both 100BB deep.
Its crazy to shove the flop in lets say 4-5 SPR(stack to pot ratio) when your opponent would never call that overbet shove unless he has you beat.
When the SPR is 2 and less i am automaticly pot commited and i am getting it in with all my overpairs TPTK open ended straight draws, FD etc.
So showing on the flop with both of us pot commited is going to make him pay off with all his overcards, FDs, SDs, TP and some hands that beat us as well.
What concerns me the most is should i just jam preflop with AJs with only 13-14BB to a what seems to be a REG MP 2.2BB raise ?

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If you're looking to trap BB/SB then I would call. If you're looking for a flip or better shove. In this scenario I would shove preflop. 20-25 bbs I would call.

The shove is the correct play here. The dude could have a T and this only would give him a pretty free card. The preflop play is ok. You hit the J, despite the dangerous board with flush/streight draw.

Shove pre, get it in on the flop.

trent32la said:

Shove pre, get it in on the flop.

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It isn't that hard guys.

shove pre. calling villains open costs 20% of your stack. if you take it to the flop, youre going to have a hard time getting value from his worse hands and a hard time getting his better hands to fold on most flops. just shove pre. maximize your FE and increase your EV.

Jam pre.
As played, jam flop.

PostFlopMaster said:

What did villain have? I would say you didn't make a mistake pre however you made your mistake on the flop which you stated, shoving on flop is basically shoving pre, you're only shoving into a better hand or draw, which will get snapped giving the situation. Id call the cbet and see the turn let my opponents action determine my play, this is speaking from a cash standpoint. From a Tournament standpoint depending on how close I am to the bubble I would probably fold to any bet on the turn.

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I think you should shove this one preflop. When someone with 14BB's just minopens, I never think he has a monster (unless you are facing a descent reg). I think he is often scared to lose his tourney. So I would put him on a pocket pair 66-TT or AJ, AQ. Given that he is probably scared to lose his tourney and you have a strong hand with only 16BB's (which covers him) I think he might even fold to shove and you take it down preflop.