I made the wrong play here. Anyone care to elaborate on why?

TPC

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I made the wrong play here. Anyone care to elaborate on why? Also what do you think the correct play here is?

$1.20 One table SNG

Villains stats
VPIP = 17
PFR = 3
AF = 4.7

Full Tilt - $1+$0.20|50/100 NL - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

Hero (SB): $4,725.00
BB: $1,580.00
UTG: $3,450.00
CO: $870.00
BTN: $2,875.00

Hero posts SB $50.00, BB posts BB $100.00

Pre Flop: (pot: $150.00) Hero has K A

fold, fold, BTN raises to $350.00, Hero raises to $4,725.00 and is all-in
 

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atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

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Ace king is a drawing hand, I would think just calling and seeing the flop would be the better play.
 
dmorris68

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Obv read dependent, but at a 5-handed table facing a BTN raise from the blinds and being the big stack, I think a 3-bet is pretty standard when you have so much fold equity here. Not sure what SnGWiz would recommend as far as shoving it, but I see AK shoving all the time here.

You don't say how many hands you have on villain, but those stats are pretty pre-flop passive if it's a small sample. If it's a sizeable sample then he rarely raises pre so you have to give him credit here for a hand. What's his steal%? You're stacked enough to afford a standard 3-bet (say around 1000) here in case he's stealing, then give up post-flop to further aggression if you don't hit. You'd give up the chip lead but still have a very healthy stack to play with at this level.

OTOH it can be argued that by not shoving here you face a difficult decision on the flop if he calls your 3bet and you hit say a single K on the flop, in which case you don't know if you're up against AA, KKK, or a weaker K. If the flop comes A or K and he has a smaller A or K here, with his 4.7 AF I'd expect him to play it pretty fast, and it would probably be hard to tell where you are. So with that in mind I don't think a shove is all that bad either if you don't have a ton of confidence in your read and postflop skills.

I'm also reminded that this is a $1 SnG. You can't assume standard play at these levels unless you've got enough reads on this guy to peg him as solid.
 
TPC

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Ace king is a drawing hand, I would think just calling and seeing the flop would be the better play.

Ace King is not a drawing hand. I'm looking for longer than one sentence answers as well.

Rhymes with honkey?

Again looking for longer than one sentence answers. And what do Monkeys have to do with this?

Obv read dependent, but at a 5-handed table facing a BTN raise from the blinds and being the big stack, I think a 3-bet is pretty standard when you have so much fold equity here. Not sure what SnGWiz would recommend as far as shoving it, but I see AK shoving all the time here.

You don't say how many hands you have on villain, but those stats are pretty pre-flop passive if it's a small sample. If it's a sizeable sample then he rarely raises pre so you have to give him credit here for a hand. What's his steal%? You're stacked enough to afford a standard 3-bet (say around 1000) here in case he's stealing, then give up post-flop to further aggression if you don't hit. You'd give up the chip lead but still have a very healthy stack to play with at this level.

OTOH it can be argued that by not shoving here you face a difficult decision on the flop if he calls your 3bet and you hit say a single K on the flop, in which case you don't know if you're up against AA, KKK, or a weaker K. If the flop comes A or K and he has a smaller A or K here, with his 4.7 AF I'd expect him to play it pretty fast, and it would probably be hard to tell where you are. So with that in mind I don't think a shove is all that bad either if you don't have a ton of confidence in your read and postflop skills.

I'm also reminded that this is a $1 SnG. You can't assume standard play at these levels unless you've got enough reads on this guy to peg him as solid.

I left the hands and villains steal stats out on purpose. Was hoping to get a few more responses. Great post so far, this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Anyone else?

Also, The villains steal was 4% and fold the three bet 50% over 121 hands. Not a huge sample size.
 
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It might be too short an answer for your liking and it might be a big donkey answer...but I know why I wouldn't do it.

You're the big stack by a good margin. There's 2 stacks that are short, one really short, which means you might be pretty much sitting on the bubble.

Even if those two get busted by your other opponents rather than yourself, there's a pretty good chance that you're still the big stack, or close to it.

But if you lose the hand and double up the 2,875 guy, that'll hurt. You'll still be ok, but the risk seems way greater than the reward here.

Maybe I'm too timid, but I'm not shoving here against a raise with AKo.
 
TPC

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It might be too short an answer for your liking and it might be a big donkey answer...but I know why I wouldn't do it. You're the big stack by a good margin. There's 2 stacks that are short, one really short, which means you might be pretty much sitting on the bubble. Even if those two get busted by your other opponents rather than yourself, there's a pretty good chance that you're still the big stack, or close to it. But if you lose the hand and double up the 2,875 guy, that'll hurt. You'll still be ok, but the risk seems way greater than the reward here. Maybe I'm too timid, but I'm not shoving here against a raise with AKo.

No, good answer for the first question but you didn't answer the second question. What do you think the correct play is?
 
WVHillbilly

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I don't think it was the wrong play. Your sample size is nothing and it's a BTN open. Stack sizes are all wrong to not be committed if you 3bet smaller, so shoving gives you max FE and we get to see all 5 cards (which our "drawing hand" :) likes).

That said if you really didn't think his range is wide enough to make shoving profitable, then call. Playing postflop OOP with AK isn't the worst thing in the world.
 
B

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No, good answer for the first question but you didn't answer the second question. What do you think the correct play is?

From the small blind? I'd probably say a fold. You'd be out of position against one, maybe two callers.

I'd be really, really tempted to just call and see a flop...in fact, I'm such a poor tournament player that I probably would have done just that. But the disadvantages and risks still outweigh the potential rewards in my opinion.
 
T

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IMO i think this play is pretty standard. His play looks like a steal, you shove hoping for a call.

The only thing i think that would change this is his PFR stats its really low. Like someone else pointed out since he raises so little when he does raise you should give him credit.

If shoving is the wrong play.

Possibly 3-bet/fold if he 4 bets.


Or to save more chips Call/fold.




Another thought this is 1.20$ your getting called everytime because of all the donkeys at this lvl. Its better to just call and outplay your villain postflop.
 
TPC

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I don't think it was the wrong play. Your sample size is nothing and it's a BTN open. Stack sizes are all wrong to not be committed if you 3bet smaller, so shoving gives you max FE and we get to see all 5 cards (which our "drawing hand" :) likes).

That said if you really didn't think his range is wide enough to make shoving profitable, then call. Playing postflop OOP with AK isn't the worst thing in the world.

Says the cash player:D Just giving you crap:)
 
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I feel like this is some kind of quiz and we're all going to get graded. =O
 
atlantafalcons0

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Well ace king damn sure aint a made hand.
 
cjatud2012

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Well ace king damn sure aint a made hand.

No offense, but saying "AK is just a drawing hand" demonstrates very little understanding of poker.

For further discussion, please see this thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/community-hangout-4/ak-example-thread-173468/

To answer TPC, I can see how there might be better plays than shoving considering the stack sizes. However, shoving is still +EV, and eliminates the possibilities of any mistakes we might make in the future (which is bound to happen, playing out of position).
 
PC69

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Jumping in here and not looking at all the responses.. His steal is 4% and his 3bet% fold is 50% here Id likely call here or fold. If iam jamming hes likely going to call and I need to suck out. If I fold hes gonna take down a small pot and Iam gonna have a better spot. Its a great spot for discussion because a lot of leaks are exposed here including mine at times. If Ive gone few orbits and hes not betting that spot alot Iam most likely to flat preflop and see a flop. He may be on a pp and If i flop it then i got the odds to get him in. If i dont I still got some equity to fold. Quick thought before bed, sorry if its a little short.
 
WVHillbilly

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Well ace king damn sure aint a made hand.

It's about equity. And AK's equity against the range that we can assign to our opponent in most case is very good. Now let's look at Made Hands vs AK (your drawing hand) to see which is better (wins more often).

Let's assume our opponent will open shove the top 10% of hands (88+/A9s+/AJo+) on the BTN when his M is 6 or lower:

We have 51% equity against that range with TT.
We have 56% equity against that range with JJ.
We have 58% equity against that range with AK.

I'll take the "drawing hand" over the made hands above every time and so should you.
 
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PC69

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Seeing WV's last response to AF itt Iam likely to get schooled a bit myself here by TPC and WV, but Iam ok with it. This is what CC is for. Let me have it.. I need a a little reality slap TBH after the last cpl days. This pumps me up
 
atlantafalcons0

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It's about equity. And AK's equity against the range that we can assign to our opponent in most case is very good. Now let's look at Made Hands vs AK (your drawing hand) to see which is better (wins more often).

Let's assume our opponent will open shove the top 10% of hands (88+/A9s+/AJo+) on the BTN when his M is 6 or lower:

We have 51% equity against that range with TT.
We have 56% equity against that range with JJ.
We have 58% equity against that range with AK.

I'll take the "drawing hand" over the made hands above every time and so should you.

So when they have aces or kings just suck it up?
 
atlantafalcons0

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I guess what I'm saying is - even if you know he has queen jack suited, why risk the chips at this point???
 

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TPC

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The likely hood of someone having AA or KK is pretty small when you hold an A and a K in your hand.

This thread isn't about "AK is just a drawing hand" which it isn't. Lets stay on track please.
 
atlantafalcons0

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No offense, but saying "AK is just a drawing hand" demonstrates very little understanding of poker.

For further discussion, please see this thread: https://www.cardschat.com/forum/community-hangout-4/ak-example-thread-173468/

To answer TPC, I can see how there might be better plays than shoving considering the stack sizes. However, shoving is still +EV, and eliminates the possibilities of any mistakes we might make in the future (which is bound to happen, playing out of position).

Everyone has their own "sense" of what ace king means to them.

To me, shoving here is already a mistake.
 
WVHillbilly

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So when they have aces or kings just suck it up?
Until you see your opponents cards they have ranges, not a specific hand, and as I showed above AK does very well against most ranges.

As for your example, why would you not want to get it in as a 60% favorite outside of end-game scenarios with ICM concerns.

Sorry about the derail TPC but the whole AK is a drawing hand BS needed to be addressed.

I still like your shove.
 
DawgBones

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Rhymes with honkey?

Again looking for longer than one sentence answers. And what do Monkeys have to do with this?



I left the hands and villains steal stats out on purpose. Was hoping to get a few more responses. Great post so far, this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Anyone else?

Also, The villains steal was 4% and fold the three bet 50% over 121 hands. Not a huge sample size.

Honkey and monkey don't rhyme:p Asking...you raised to isolate? If so why all in? Or was btn looking to steal and you overplayed your hand and didn't get EV from AK in the SB? Think face palm is in order here. :-( You asked for responses and I asked questions. Sorry .That being said with his 4% steal I think you overplayed your hand
 
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TPC

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Let's use ICM to see why making the shove was the wrong play.

Stacks before the hand and the ICM

Hero (SB): $4,725.00 = $2.72

BB: $1,580.00 = $1.25
UTG: $3,450.00 = $2.28
CO: $870.00 = $0.72
BTN: $2,875.00 = $2.02

ICM Assuming everyone folds the the Hero Shove
Hero (SB): $5,175.00 = $2.87
BB: $1,480.00 = $1.21
UTG: $3,450.00 = $2.31
CO: $870.00 = $0.74
BTN:
$2,525.00 = $1.88

ICM Assuming BTN Calls and Hero Wins
Hero (SB): $7,700 = $3.58
BB: $1,480.00 = $1.69
UTG: $3,450.00 = $2.68
CO: $870.00 = $1.05
BTN: = out

ICM Assuming BTN Calls and Hero Loses
Hero (SB): $1,850 = $1.53
BB: $1,480.00 = $1.26
UTG: $3,450.00 = $2.38
CO: $870.00 = $0.78
BTN: $5,850= $3.07

Villain stats are 17/3/4.7 this is only over 121 hands though and he is folding to a three bet 50% of the time which is only twice out of the four three bets I have data on.

So lets assume he is calling with 4% of his range here, since his raising and steal range is so low and he is only calling three bets 50% of the time, plus calling here is for his tourney life. (note, this is a small sample)

So we plug the data into PokerStove

---------------equity--------win---------tie
Hand 0: 43.135% 32.55% 10.58% { AhKs }
Hand 1: 56.865% 46.28% 10.58% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }

So If the button calls Hero will:
- Win $0.71 43% of the time = $0.31
- Lose $1.34 56% of the time = -$0.75

So with the ICM calculation we are going to lose $0.44 making this play if we get called.

With that said, I'm not sure how we can put a number on how often villain is going to fold. We know his fold to three bet is 50%, but that stat only counts 4 three bets. If we had more hands on villain we would have a better idea of how often he will fold.

If the button folds to the shove Hero will
- Win $0.15 100% of the time = $0.15

Anyway, this proves the risk to shoving isn't worth the reward which is all I really wanted to show.

ICM also has flaws, it assumes everyone is exactly equal in skill, and that they will play the same regardless of stack sizes.
 
TPC

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Honkey and monkey don't rhyme:p Asking...you raised to isolate? If so why all in? Or was btn looking to steal and you overplayed your hand and didn't get EV from AK in the SB? Think face palm is in order here. :-( You asked for responses and I asked questions. Sorry .That being said with his 4% steal I think you overplayed your hand

I'm aware that Honkey and Monkey don't rhyme, but I wasn't going to give Pooffy the satisfaction of me saying Donkey... Damn, I just said it:D

There is no doubt that shoving AK here is the wrong play, I knew it as soon as I did it. Was one of those brain fart times. Or maybe I was back in my early days of Ooooo AK shove!!! LOL.

The point of this thread is to get some of the newer members thinking. Which is why I'm asking for more than one sentence answers. Making the right play is only part of the equation, you also need to know why the right play is the right play. This will give you a better understanding of the game and help you find spots and plays that are +EV. The better you are at finding these spots the more of an edge you will have against your opponents.
 
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