How would you have played this hand ?

F

FernandPoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Total posts
39
Chips
0
Hey there !
A friend of mine recently shared me a hand he had played a MTT. I'm still learning a lot about poker and not playing since a long time. I still found it interesting, but had questions about the plays he had made. I apologize for the terms I use to describe the hand, since I'm not very used to doing this..
Tables of 6 : SB/BB : 2/4 k
fold
fold
fold
BU : raises to 10k (Stack : 67'460)
SB : folds
BB/Hero : call with As10s (Stack : 107'750)
Here I'm asking myself if he shouldn't have 3bet, and fold if 4bet...
Pot : 25k

Flop : 3dAd6d

Hero : bets 12.5k, villain calls ; Pot : 50k

Turn : 3c

Check, check.

River : 10c

Hero : bets 37.5k, vilain raises all-in to 54.9k (Pot : 142'460)

Hero calls (of course..), villain shows Jd9d

In my opinion, everything was ok, until the river where I would have check/called. I think that the board was too dangerous to bet at the river, and villain was almost committed anyway so he would go all-in instead of calling...

What do you guys think ? Explanations about your thoughts would be great.

Thanks,
Fernand
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
The BTN only has under 17bb. You definitely can't 3bet to fold. You can 3bet jam VERY profitably here, and that might be a decent default play. But flatting is certainly fine too.

This is a pretty weird flop to be leading on. It's one that isn't particularly good for the big blind range, so I don't really think it makes sense to try to have a leading strategy here at all. I'd be checking my whole range.

As played, the rest of the hand is super difficult to evaluate because of the REALLY unusual flop line. If we're leading it bc we think we get protection and value vs single diamond hands, then why wouldn't we continue on the turn? Seems like an easy shove for value.

As played the river is a mandatory bet, and not betting there is basically lighting money on fire. Villain should have us beat only very occasionally, and we now beat AK, AQ, and AJ. Just straight up jamming is fine, though going smaller we might get hero'd pretty wide.

As played the spot is mega weird. Tbh I think I just call because at these levels people can do really weird shit, and only like KXdd and QXdd make a ton of sense for value. Generally weaker flushes will prefer to protect on earlier streets.

But yeah don't lead this flop. It's weird and makes the rest of the hand harder than it has to be imo.
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,333
Awards
10
GB
Chips
116
For me both the lead and the sizing on the flop are strange..

It doesn't read like a great spot to lead into the preflop aggressor and the bet is pricing in flush draws, which seems counterintuitive holding top pair and no diamond..

Preflop I think a call is ok but a 3bet is better in this situation (depending on previous info from the player maybe). We're BB, heads up, facing a button raise, holding ATs and have a covering stack. Fairly good spot to be in more often than not!

If it were me I'm probably raising either 3x looking for action or 75-80% of villain's stack/jam looking to induce a fold..

I'd maybe flat here if wary of being dominated or up against a monster, in which case I'm playing the hand out cautiously & passively unless catching two pair or better.. Highly doubt that would be a +ev approach though..
 
F

FernandPoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Total posts
39
Chips
0
Thanks for your messages guys. In my first comment, I forgot to include the bet on the flop (which is pretty important). Your answers cleared it up for me.
For example with an Ace of diamond instead of spades, we would've definitely bet here right ? Or still not ?
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
The ace of diamonds is on the board, so I don't really know how to answer that question lol.
 
M

mara2259

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
May 8, 2018
Total posts
782
Awards
2
Chips
50
By Harington A10 is a bad hand. Calling out of position is too dangerous. After the flop, if you decide to play with your lab kicker, you should have bet no less sweat. You would have more information about the strength of the villain’s hand.
 
B

brettlums

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 17, 2018
Total posts
89
Chips
0
he should have 3 bet Jammed all in then the button has to decide for his tournament life if he wants to gamble with only J9s which should usually be a fold to a jam
 
U

Unashamed88

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Total posts
153
Chips
0
The BTN only has under 17bb. You definitely can't 3bet to fold. You can 3bet jam VERY profitably here, and that might be a decent default play. But flatting is certainly fine too.

This is a pretty weird flop to be leading on. It's one that isn't particularly good for the big blind range, so I don't really think it makes sense to try to have a leading strategy here at all. I'd be checking my whole range.

As played, the rest of the hand is super difficult to evaluate because of the REALLY unusual flop line. If we're leading it bc we think we get protection and value vs single diamond hands, then why wouldn't we continue on the turn? Seems like an easy shove for value.

As played the river is a mandatory bet, and not betting there is basically lighting money on fire. Villain should have us beat only very occasionally, and we now beat AK, AQ, and AJ. Just straight up jamming is fine, though going smaller we might get hero'd pretty wide.

As played the spot is mega weird. Tbh I think I just call because at these levels people can do really weird shit, and only like KXdd and QXdd make a ton of sense for value. Generally weaker flushes will prefer to protect on earlier streets.

But yeah don't lead this flop. It's weird and makes the rest of the hand harder than it has to be imo.
I agree it seems the only equity his hand holds with that kind of flop in this scenario would be showdown equity. He should have just tried to get to showdown as cheap as possible correct?
 
F

FernandPoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Total posts
39
Chips
0
The ace of diamonds is on the board, so I don't really know how to answer that question lol.

I meant to say, when you got top pair and flush draw with the same setup as in this hand... But forget it.
 
Flight777sem

Flight777sem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 12, 2018
Total posts
111
Chips
0
Your opponent has under 20 bb and attacking from button. I’d probably show and put pressure on him, if he want to risk his tournament life than fine I’m okay with A-10s
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I meant to say, when you got top pair and flush draw with the same setup as in this hand... But forget it.

No I still would not be leading. We have even more showdown value when our other card is a diamond, so we need less protection anyway, if that's even the point of leading in the first place.

The issue here is less your actual hand though, and more your range. As I mentioned earlier, this flop just doesn't favor the BB range. We might have a few more flushes in our range than the BTN, but we are far too short stacked to be looking at a top side range advantage here. We need to focus on who has the overall range advantage, which, on an ace high board, will still very much belong to the original raiser.

So when we lead, not only does the BTN have a stronger range in general, but our line will just struggle to make any sense or maintain anything resembling balance. I'm not saying we need to be perfectly balanced in these spots, but it's good to be in a situation where we can have bluffs and value that make sense, and this is a hard spot to have that when we lead.

Although this whole spot is a bit off when we call pre bc it seems like a lot of our better Ax 3b jams pre anyway. So when we show up with AT here, idk, maybe we also have AJ and AQ as well? If so we have more strong AX in our range, but this is still not going to outweigh BTN's range advantage imo.
 
F

FernandPoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Total posts
39
Chips
0
No I still would not be leading. We have even more showdown value when our other card is a diamond, so we need less protection anyway, if that's even the point of leading in the first place.

The issue here is less your actual hand though, and more your range. As I mentioned earlier, this flop just doesn't favor the BB range. We might have a few more flushes in our range than the BTN, but we are far too short stacked to be looking at a top side range advantage here. We need to focus on who has the overall range advantage, which, on an ace high board, will still very much belong to the original raiser.

So when we lead, not only does the BTN have a stronger range in general, but our line will just struggle to make any sense or maintain anything resembling balance. I'm not saying we need to be perfectly balanced in these spots, but it's good to be in a situation where we can have bluffs and value that make sense, and this is a hard spot to have that when we lead.

Although this whole spot is a bit off when we call pre bc it seems like a lot of our better Ax 3b jams pre anyway. So when we show up with AT here, idk, maybe we also have AJ and AQ as well? If so we have more strong AX in our range, but this is still not going to outweigh BTN's range advantage imo.

Thank you very much for your reply Scourrge, I agree with your thoughts.
 
V

vic4win

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 26, 2018
Total posts
8
Chips
0
The BTN only has under 17bb. You definitely can't 3bet to fold. You can 3bet jam VERY profitably here, and that might be a decent default play. But flatting is certainly fine too.

This is a pretty weird flop to be leading on. It's one that isn't particularly good for the big blind range, so I don't really think it makes sense to try to have a leading strategy here at all. I'd be checking my whole range.

As played, the rest of the hand is super difficult to evaluate because of the REALLY unusual flop line. If we're leading it bc we think we get protection and value vs single diamond hands, then why wouldn't we continue on the turn? Seems like an easy shove for value.

As played the river is a mandatory bet, and not betting there is basically lighting money on fire. Villain should have us beat only very occasionally, and we now beat AK, AQ, and AJ. Just straight up jamming is fine, though going smaller we might get hero'd pretty wide.

As played the spot is mega weird. Tbh I think I just call because at these levels people can do really weird shit, and only like KXdd and QXdd make a ton of sense for value. Generally weaker flushes will prefer to protect on earlier streets.

But yeah don't lead this flop. It's weird and makes the rest of the hand harder than it has to be imo.
Agree completely great answer
 
E

EL1t1

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 1, 2016
Total posts
185
Chips
0
Shove for value preflop from BB is the best play in this spot, ur way ahead of opponents range and even when he calls we have good equity, u also dont get in spots like this where u dont know what to do on each street and u dont allow them to realize their post flop equity by shoving pre, so shove pre is the best play by far in this spot.
 
F

FernandPoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Total posts
39
Chips
0
Shove for value preflop from BB is the best play in this spot, ur way ahead of opponents range and even when he calls we have good equity, u also dont get in spots like this where u dont know what to do on each street and u dont allow them to realize their post flop equity by shoving pre, so shove pre is the best play by far in this spot.

Ok, then I had it right :D
 
A

ankitgupta45

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 30, 2017
Total posts
28
Chips
0
We shove preflop because u want to deny equity to the villain that he has with his two hold cards. For ex. here villain with J9s has 40% equity to our ATs . By shoving we deny him equity and scoop up the pot most of the time. For me 25 BB is the point where i stop shoving into BTN with this hand if he is reasonable player .
Also, if ur friend feels that the BTN is fishy , i can definitely go with the idea of flatting and take a weird line when playing against him like your friend did.

However against , as strong good player , lead is ill adviced as the stacks u have , villain is either folding or shoving on this kind of board . He is folding if he doesnt have diamond and he is shoving if he has atleast one diamond . Also, there is a lack of plan on what to do on turn , By checking we are only going to make our hand worse as we give villain watever little equity he has to realise by seeing the turn for free. So, in short i have two plans here , either leade big on flop and shove turn to deny equity to his hands he has OR check on flop , see how villain bets and evaluate .
 
F

FernandPoker

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Total posts
39
Chips
0
We shove preflop because u want to deny equity to the villain that he has with his two hold cards. For ex. here villain with J9s has 40% equity to our ATs . By shoving we deny him equity and scoop up the pot most of the time. For me 25 BB is the point where i stop shoving into BTN with this hand if he is reasonable player .
Also, if ur friend feels that the BTN is fishy , i can definitely go with the idea of flatting and take a weird line when playing against him like your friend did.

However against , as strong good player , lead is ill adviced as the stacks u have , villain is either folding or shoving on this kind of board . He is folding if he doesnt have diamond and he is shoving if he has atleast one diamond . Also, there is a lack of plan on what to do on turn , By checking we are only going to make our hand worse as we give villain watever little equity he has to realise by seeing the turn for free. So, in short i have two plans here , either leade big on flop and shove turn to deny equity to his hands he has OR check on flop , see how villain bets and evaluate .

I got it ! Clear answer, thanks for explaining. This will help me for sure in the future :)
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top