Hand set vs set

PosFlopALLIN · Feb 21, 2020

what a sin that hand very close to the bubble ...

but what confused me reading was the villain fish having entered a ridiculous limp QQ his move ... pity that hit Q ... but finally it complicated my reading .. if he had made the third bet (tribet) pre flop maybe I would have folded ...would anyone give up that hand ?? that way it was played and free ??

Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 75/150 (15 ante) - 9 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

vimpraganhar (UTG): 8,050 (54 bb)
PosFlopALLIN (UTG+1): 9,425 (63 bb)
mutyus60 (MP): 615 (4 bb)
paymesir23 (MP+1): 12,902 (86 bb)
GatiN_PretO (LP): 5,846 (39 bb)
CashOut727 (CO): 1,720 (11 bb)
MoneyMaker497 (BU): 795 (5 bb)
RHCPanda (SB): 2,765 (18 bb)
MR BOZITO SIR (BB): 9,802 (65 bb)

Pre-Flop: (360) Hero (PosFlopALLIN) is UTG+1 with 2♦ 2♣
vimpraganhar (UTG) raises to 300, PosFlopALLIN (UTG+1) calls 300, 2 players fold, GatiN_PretO (LP) calls 300, CashOut727 (CO) calls 300, 2 players fold, MR BOZITO SIR (BB) calls 150

Flop: (1,710) 2♠ Q♥ T♣ (5 players)
MR BOZITO SIR (BB) checks, vimpraganhar (UTG) checks, PosFlopALLIN (UTG+1) bets 855, GatiN_PretO (LP) calls 855, CashOut727 (CO) folds, MR BOZITO SIR (BB) calls 855, vimpraganhar (UTG) raises to 7,735 (all-in), PosFlopALLIN (UTG+1) raises to 9,110 (all-in), 2 players fold

Turn: (18,890) 7♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (18,890) 7♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 18,890

Showdown:
PosFlopALLIN (UTG+1) shows 2♦ 2♣ (a full house, Twos full of Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 4%, Turn: 2%, River: 0%)

vimpraganhar (UTG) shows Q♦ Q♠ (a full house, Queens full of Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 96%, Turn: 98%, River: 100%)

vimpraganhar (UTG) wins 18,890

fundiver199 · Feb 21, 2020

Preflop you need at least 99 or TT to profitably call an UTG open next to act. Postflop is just a cooler, but this is part of the reason, why you need to fold preflop. When someone open UTG, pocket pairs make up a big percentage of their range, so set over set situations will be relatively common, and when you have 22, you are always on the bad end of them.

iwont20 · Feb 21, 2020

Set vs set is always brutal, but yeah - low pocket pairs should be forgotten both for opening or calling on early positions as a general rule.

PosFlopALLIN · Feb 21, 2020

thanks

fundiver199 said:
Preflop you need at least 99 or TT to profitably call an UTG open next to act. Postflop is just a cooler, but this is part of the reason, why you need to fold preflop. When someone open UTG, pocket pairs make up a big percentage of their range, so set over set situations will be relatively common, and when you have 22, you are always on the bad end of them.

of great value

PosFlopALLIN · Feb 21, 2020

thanks

iwont20 said:
Set vs set is always brutal, but yeah - low pocket pairs should be forgotten both for opening or calling on early positions as a general rule.

thanks! until which pair is considerably profitable to enter after raising the utg? why is it kind of arbitrary this ... because whoever opens the utg TT for example will make the same size opening an HH ... what's the use of paying with a higher pair will be the same thing no? what range of pairs should i call raise from UTG? for speculation ..

Jon Poker · Feb 22, 2020

fundiver199 said:
Preflop you need at least 99 or TT to profitably call an UTG open next to act. Postflop is just a cooler, but this is part of the reason, why you need to fold preflop. When someone open UTG, pocket pairs make up a big percentage of their range, so set over set situations will be relatively common, and when you have 22, you are always on the bad end of them.

This time I actually disagree. We are surely set mining here because otherwise deuces are notoriously hard to play post flop because literally every other card is an overcard. Anyhow, to profitably set mine we need 15:1 odds on a call, so our opponent and ourselves must have a chip stack = 300 x 15 which is 4500 and we are getting those odds.

Our opponent doesnt always have to have a pair here and they dont always hit their set either. For me, it's just a cooler. Nothing we can do in this situation. Being on the wrong end of set over set we are almost always going broke. We literally only lose to QQ and TT, so only losing to 2 hands in the entire deck, I'm going broke here.

Anyhow - your call is profitable to set mine with, we hit our set and unfortunately our opponent did too. Standard go broke spot. Dont sweat it, unavoidable, move on.

iwont20 · Feb 29, 2020

Jon Poker said:
This time I actually disagree. We are surely set mining here because otherwise deuces are notoriously hard to play post flop because literally every other card is an overcard. Anyhow, to profitably set mine we need 15:1 odds on a call, so our opponent and ourselves must have a chip stack = 300 x 15 which is 4500 and we are getting those odds.

Our opponent doesnt always have to have a pair here and they dont always hit their set either. For me, it's just a cooler. Nothing we can do in this situation. Being on the wrong end of set over set we are almost always going broke. We literally only lose to QQ and TT, so only losing to 2 hands in the entire deck, I'm going broke here.

Anyhow - your call is profitable to set mine with, we hit our set and unfortunately our opponent did too. Standard go broke spot. Dont sweat it, unavoidable, move on.

When you cold call here you are not playing only vs UTG himself but also 7 other players behind you both.

nikoszwtos93 · Feb 29, 2020

set vs set is the worse beat you can get
I raged so much last time I broke my mouse :<

martinf1971 · Feb 29, 2020

Twice I have had pocket 5s and hit my third on the flop and then lost to a set of Aces

Jon Poker · Feb 29, 2020

iwont20 said:
When you cold call here you are not playing only vs UTG himself but also 7 other players behind you both.

When I am specifically set mining I dont care how many people are in the hand. It only increases my implied odds when I hit. So that being said as I eluded to - we are getting correct odds to do so here and playing 22s post is always awkward with nothing but overcards on the board so it's pretty much either flop a set and go for value or check-fold when we miss.

Now on the other hand if we had a premium like AK here then we put in the 3bet and look to get this heads up.

fundiver199 · Feb 29, 2020

The main problem with having so many people behind us is, that each of them can put in a 3-bet. Then we need to fold 22 without even seeing a flop, and this cut into the profitability of making any kind of speculative call. If its a loose-passive game, where people are just going to call, that is completely fine, because then we do indeed get more sources of implied odds.

SuzdalDEcor · Mar 1, 2020

You're beating too many hands here. So, you cant fold vs push or 3bet. You was just unlucky in this spot. Next time you will see 2 pairs, overpairs and some draws in here.

cardplayer52 · Jun 15, 2021

If lots of players are seeing flops then I call the 22 pre.flop but otherwise im more apt to play it on the bu or blinds.
After the flop I check behind. I just think somebody is going to take a stab at it. But if I did bet then yes the money goes in. There are still AA KK AQ and maybe a few AK hands that would take this line.

StealTheButton · Jul 4, 2021

I think this would be a quick fold pre flop. There are soo many people left to act. I also don't fishing for a set with 2-2 thru 5-5 or 6-6. Granted any smaller set will lose to a set of Kings or Aces, but with these little pairs almost any set beats you. Also, it really sucks when you hit your set and the board is counterfitted. For example, you hold 22 and villain holds AK. On the river the board reads
5-2-A-5-5. That's tough to swallow.

Maybe my range is too tight, but I'm only calling with AK or 10-10 or better.

94EXPOS · Jul 4, 2021

I like trying to see a flop cheap with mid to low PP's and hope to hit a set. Just bad luck that you ran into another set. Yes QQ should have made a substantial raise pre flop. This reminds me of a hand I observed while playing 3/6 limit in Winnipeg, Manitoba, canada quite a few years ago where the action was 4 bets capped pre flop, flop, turn was 3 bet and river was capped again. Turns out 3 players flopped sets with AA, KK and 88. Luckily for the 2 losers this was limit and not No Limit.

theANMATOR · Nov 8, 2021

fundiver199 said:
The main problem with having so many people behind us is, that each of them can put in a 3-bet. Then we need to fold 22 without even seeing a flop, and this cut into the profitability of making any kind of speculative call. If its a loose-passive game, where people are just going to call, that is completely fine, because then we do indeed get more sources of implied odds.

Agree with the preflop fold.

In what relative position do you call with duces FD? I'm thinking HJ or CO?
Thanks for the followup.

fundiver199 · Nov 8, 2021

theANMATOR said:
In what relative position do you call with duces FD? I'm thinking HJ or CO?

Yeah something like this, and of course depending on stack sizes. If there are players behind with a rejam stack like 20BB or less, thats a turn-off in itself.

StealTheButton · Nov 13, 2021

This is a fold with so many other player to act. I also prefer to play pairs higher than this. Granted a set of 8's loses to a set of Q's just the same as a set of 2's. But a set of 8 will still beat all the lower sets. Also, there will be times when the river comes the board may do something like 4 2 10 4 4 and your set of 2's doesn't play. Or something like 2 J J J J, where the high card wins. Not that these scenarios happen often enough, but it is worth mentioning.

I've been stacked enough times with sets of 2's and 3's against sets 4's and 5's that I don't play these anymore.

Hand set vs set

PosFlopALLIN

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fundiver199

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iwont20

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PosFlopALLIN

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PosFlopALLIN

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Jon Poker

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iwont20

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nikoszwtos93

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martinf1971

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Jon Poker

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fundiver199

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SuzdalDEcor

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cardplayer52

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StealTheButton

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94EXPOS

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theANMATOR

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fundiver199

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StealTheButton

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