freddydr87
League Champion
Bronze Level
$Freeroll NLHE MTT Turbo: Should i fold or push Turn instead off X/shoving?
liuouhgkres
Visionary
Bronze Level
Preflop: 3bet with bigger sizing, 3.5x-4x.
Flop: If your 3bet range is linear and very strong, you can 3bet 100% of your range here, but with smaller sizing. half pot is too big. Prefer betting 33%.
Turn: On the turn it's close between check call and check fold. You have decent showdown value, so no point in shoving imho. I prefer bluffing with 2c, 3c. If you think villain is capable of bluffing then it's check call. If villain is passive, then it's check fold.
Flop: If your 3bet range is linear and very strong, you can 3bet 100% of your range here, but with smaller sizing. half pot is too big. Prefer betting 33%.
Turn: On the turn it's close between check call and check fold. You have decent showdown value, so no point in shoving imho. I prefer bluffing with 2c, 3c. If you think villain is capable of bluffing then it's check call. If villain is passive, then it's check fold.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Preflop
Given that he is a calling station, and you are the middling stack, I prefer to pot control and just call preflop. I dont think, the 3-bet does anything good for you here. It bloats the pot, when you are out of position with a hand, which is only really happy, when it flops a set.
Flop
You flopped a bad pair and a bad draw, and this is exactly why, it would have been better to keep the pot small. I dont see any point in betting with this hand. He is never folding a better pair or a better draw, and a bet definitely put your stack at risk.
Turn
Now you have a bad flush, and this is the whole issue with bloating the pot. I guess, you are kind of committed to it now, and that check-calling is better than jamming, because it keep his range wider.
Given that he is a calling station, and you are the middling stack, I prefer to pot control and just call preflop. I dont think, the 3-bet does anything good for you here. It bloats the pot, when you are out of position with a hand, which is only really happy, when it flops a set.
Flop
You flopped a bad pair and a bad draw, and this is exactly why, it would have been better to keep the pot small. I dont see any point in betting with this hand. He is never folding a better pair or a better draw, and a bet definitely put your stack at risk.
Turn
Now you have a bad flush, and this is the whole issue with bloating the pot. I guess, you are kind of committed to it now, and that check-calling is better than jamming, because it keep his range wider.
Jon Poker
Legend
Silver Level
Preflop I like the 3bet but since we are out of position (oop) we need to go a little bigger than 3x - I always go 3.5-4x to account for playing the hand oop - it just puts a little more pressure on our opponent.
As played- Given our 3bet preflop I wouldn't be scared of the mono toned flop - the cbet is good and it sets us up for nice turn jam since our stack gives us a 1:1 spr.
So that being said - SHOVE the turn. If he has the guys to call us with a 9 hi flush good for him. Given our preflop and post flop lines we have ALL of the Kx hands and all of the highest flush cards in our range. Not to mention if he has hands like TT and JJ or even QQ with no club - they all need new pants after we do this and are likely folding because of the gross spot we put them in. I think the Tc and lower are put in such an awkward spot when we do this that they HAVE to consider folding.
Edit:: I also want to note when we check turn and allow them to bet - well now when we shove they are now priced in to call us off and they cannot fold. When we shove the turn we take that away from them and maximize our fold equity!
When we jam turn we should only be getting called by some high flushes (J+) sets (which should have RAISED the flop) and straights. That condenses our opponents range so much that we shouldnt be fearing what they COULD have that beats us, but rather all of the hands in their range that we get to fold. We win this pot and we are even with our opponent and setup for a good battle!
As played- Given our 3bet preflop I wouldn't be scared of the mono toned flop - the cbet is good and it sets us up for nice turn jam since our stack gives us a 1:1 spr.
So that being said - SHOVE the turn. If he has the guys to call us with a 9 hi flush good for him. Given our preflop and post flop lines we have ALL of the Kx hands and all of the highest flush cards in our range. Not to mention if he has hands like TT and JJ or even QQ with no club - they all need new pants after we do this and are likely folding because of the gross spot we put them in. I think the Tc and lower are put in such an awkward spot when we do this that they HAVE to consider folding.
Edit:: I also want to note when we check turn and allow them to bet - well now when we shove they are now priced in to call us off and they cannot fold. When we shove the turn we take that away from them and maximize our fold equity!
When we jam turn we should only be getting called by some high flushes (J+) sets (which should have RAISED the flop) and straights. That condenses our opponents range so much that we shouldnt be fearing what they COULD have that beats us, but rather all of the hands in their range that we get to fold. We win this pot and we are even with our opponent and setup for a good battle!
liuouhgkres
Visionary
Bronze Level
Jesus Christ do you even read what you write? You are shoving to make villain fold only 9c and Tc? Is this is the worst way to play poker.
Jon Poker
Legend
Silver Level
I'm shoving because it is certainly a play we should consider making in this spot. I didnt say I was targeting only the 9 or 10 of clubs, we target waaaaay more than that - seems to me you may have missed most of my advice. So I ask...do you even read what I write?
Since you apparently dont understand what I was advising, the simplified version would be that by checking the turn we allow the villan to bet into us - and when we shove afterwards this allows them to be priced in and they cannot realistically fold for the price of our shove. Maybe bad players will make the fold - but for those with any basic mathematical understanding will know they are priced in and now baby flushes and other marginal holdings will sigh call.
When we shove the turn with a 1:1 spr we take away that option from their wheelhouse and we are NOT pricing them in. If we want to win the pot - I believe this is the best line for us to take especially given the preflop action with us as the aggressor. We shove turn, we give ourselves a CHANCE to win this pot - otherwise x/fold and give up on this one. If we are willing to x/shove and risk going broke with no fold equity, then we should be willing to open shove the turn and risk going broke with maximum fold equity.
Not to sound like a ***** - but perhaps instead of only criticizing my point of view - maybe you could have offered something to this discussion yourself? Constructive strategy and reasoning maybe? Anything would be more useful than the needling of someone else's advice when clearly you yourself didnt understand what was being said. If you came here to troll, you can take that nonsense and attitude elsewhere - the rest of us can do without it. Good day to you!
liuouhgkres
Visionary
Bronze Level
No, it's not.
When we shove on the turn, from hands that are stronger than our hand, only 9 and T club would fold. All other hands that fold are weaker than our hand and we gain nothing from making villain fold them. Thus by shoving you are putting pressure only on Tc and 9c. Now, you explain how we target way more than that?
Yes, I read all gibberish nonsense that you wrote.
Your assumption that if we check villain will bet hands that villain would fold if we shove turn is wrong. If we check, villain will bet Jc or better. If we shove villain will call with Jc or better. By checking you are not pricing in anything, that kind of naive thinking can work on other boards, but not on these type of boards with four cards to flush. On these boards, when we check villain will check most of the time. Your whole goal to gain more fold equity is completely inappropriate. You want to maximize fold equity on 1. wet boards, 2. with no showdown value, 3. with drawing hand. In our situation it is very dry board, showdown value and no draw.
This is a good thing, you want villain to get it in with baby flush. Why are you worried about baby flushes?
It is not our only chance to win, your assumption is dead wrong again. We have showdown value, it can be checked down and we can win on showdown.
If you scroll little higher you will see that I gave the only reasonable and helpful answer in this topic. Maybe you could read the topic before posting your nonsense.
Jon Poker
Legend
Silver Level
We have practically no showdown value on this board and we cannot check it down when our opponent leads the turn for half of our remaining stack! After being called on the flop we have to consider turning our 8s into a bluff and if we want to win this hand whatsoever...we shove turn and target Kx hands with no club or any live club smaller than the J. With our SPR around 1:1 on the turn it is the perfect setup for such a play. Whether our villan folds here or not, i cannot say, but they certainly wouldn't feel good about their 9 hi flush.
Nonetheless....
You and I clearly disagree on our points of view and it apparently goes pretty deep. I think your analogy is flawed and you are leaving money on the table whilst you seem to think my analogy if flawed because it is overly aggressive and taking us through a higher variance route that we do not need to risk. It's fine, this is a beautiful part of the game where there can be multiple strategies that can both yield good results. My replies are done - I don't want to hijack this thread and turn our disagreement into anymore of a pissing contest than it already is. Thanks for your opinions, hopefully the OP and the rest of the readers get something out of this whole ordeal. Take care.