$Freeroll NLHE MTT Turbo: $ NLHE MTT Fold Ace High Flush???

B

bealpoker

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Before I start, I know gto will probably say this is a call, I am not just posting this to be results orientated. In the moment I tank called the river shove.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9qkfHq4

This tournament had 600 registrations, 84 paid and were 60 left, pay jump was around 5/6 places.

Villian is 17/5 over 60 hands, he played a hand similar to this a couple orbits ago where he min raised pre and delayed cbet on the turn when he flopped top two pair.

I don't really see what raises pre delay cbets turn and shoves river as a bluff on this board, especially when the backdoor flush completes and we have the As we block some of the hands he would turn into a bluff like the A high flush.

I didn't think he has any bluffs in his range here but thought he might be value betting a worse hand such as AK KQ QJ (this is only 22 combos), apart from that there is not many hands I beat. I need to win here 35% to be profitable so he needs less than 40 combos of value bets what beat me where I can only find 24 so this should be a call given this,

However given how he played a couple orbits ago I feel this is an exploitative play and looking back at the hand(without being results orientated) I feel I should have folded!

What would you have done? Is this correct to fold?
 
Nafor

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It is so easy to start giving 'words of wisdom' AFTERWARDS when the heat of the moment has passed. Nevertheless, here's mine.

You were the big stack, but still the small stack seemed to be in control. I would have possibly made a pot / half pot sized bet on the flop and watched if I get a call or a re-raise. But since the flush was not ready by turn I might have folded to his turn raise.

It's quite rare in my opinion that someone goes all in on river so at least that should have raised the alarm bells.

Just the other night I watched Arlie Shaban on Twitch when he folded his pocket Ace's under a big raise on river. To him that was a smart decision. He would have lost. One should never fall too much in love with one's hand that folding stops to be an option.
 
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300HPGOD

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I think you should have bet the flop but I am not sure that changes much with this particular hand in the end. You flopped top pair, you would have bet and got called or raised. You might fold if you get raised there but that would be snug and your opponent would probably not raise anyway given he had a set. Turn would come and he would probably check and you could check or bet. If you bet he probably then bets and ask yourself if you would fold. Would you fold top pair nut flush draw at that point? Probably not and then river would come which would be another tough find to fold.

Once you call preflop, the way the cards run out you are just in it and it is one of those is what it is type hands in my opinion.
 
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fundiver199

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If the Villain was only raising 5% of hands preflop, I would strongly consider to fold A9s, especially with 4 players left to act after me. He was also a short stack, which makes it more difficult to draw or outplay him after the flop.

Postflop is just a cooler. You absolutely cannot fold the nut flush to someone, who started with less than 20BB. This is the hand, you were trying to make, and now you want to fold it? As you say yourself, he can have a worse flush or trips. Or even AK, which he dont know, what to do with on a bad river card, so he just ship it in. It was just a really bad river card for you, and situations like this can not be avoided.
 
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If the Villain was only raising 5% of hands preflop, I would strongly consider to fold A9s, especially with 4 players left to act after me. He was also a short stack, which makes it more difficult to draw or outplay him after the flop.

Postflop is just a cooler. You absolutely cannot fold the nut flush to someone, who started with less than 20BB. This is the hand, you were trying to make, and now you want to fold it? As you say yourself, he can have a worse flush or trips. Or even AK, which he dont know, what to do with on a bad river card, so he just ship it in. It was just a really bad river card for you, and situations like this can not be avoided.


+1
A9s is not a Hand you want to Play against a tight Player with 20bb Opening.
Fold pre because there you are behind against his range.


as played: not much you could do. You block AQ AA and it's unlikely that he has 22/33. you beat AK/AJ and KQ. I doubt that I could fold the turn/river. also betting the flop doesn't make sense to me
 
Vallet

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I don't think anyone could fold on the river in this situation. I would mark the opponent's check on the flop. He correctly concealed the strength of his hand and turned it into a bluff on the turn. So you might think he had a flash draw.
 
moulan7

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Hi,

You can't avoid the post flop situation.
But preflop calling is a mistake here for me. The worst of your three options.
Best option is to fold.
3bet is an option too with A9s, but no here (although better than calling). More likely when you are in position against a late open or from the blinds.
Calling A9s is ok only when defending from the bb for my taste.

Since you called, I like your check back on the flop.
On river you have to call of course.
And he's lucky because you hold the only hand, (other than 22,33) that can pay him xD.
 
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I would fold preflop.
Villain is very tight opening first, especially early positions and they are not deep enough so you may exploit them postflop, I would prefer calling with medium pairs and AQs+.
As played you can lead on the flop when checked to.
On the river you have to call, they could have AQ,AA,QQ, but also JT, JK of spades, QKs that are also shoving river for value.
I also doubt that they have many bluffs on their range but you beat enough hands to justify calling river.
 
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Jon Poker

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No need to go in depth here. I think the hand was played very well - flop check back by both is very deceptive - we turn our flush draw and cannot fold top or and a flush draw here. When we hit our flush we really only lose to AQ and QQ and our opponent should be betting these hands for value on the flop. The runout is just a cooler for us. I am NEVER folding this river the way this hand was played - that's why we practice good bankroll management! :)

Nothing we can do here but take the hit, love the way you played this hand post flop.
 
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fundiver199

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love the way you played this hand post flop.

I agree. So often we pick hands apart, so its important to also note it, when a hand was played well. And postflop this was perfect. Its always annoying to catch up, when we are behind, but it does not mean, we did anything wrong.
 
Jon Poker

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I agree. So often we pick hands apart, so its important to also note it, when a hand was played well. And postflop this was perfect. Its always annoying to catch up, when we are behind, but it does not mean, we did anything wrong.


Never!! The wild thing is with the flop check I feel like we are ahead on the turn and probably on the river as well! Just happened to run into one of the few hands that crush us and our villan played it passively - not much we can do besides lose a bunch of chips here.
 
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bealpoker

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No need to go in depth here. I think the hand was played very well - flop check back by both is very deceptive - we turn our flush draw and cannot fold top or and a flush draw here. When we hit our flush we really only lose to AQ and QQ and our opponent should be betting these hands for value on the flop. The runout is just a cooler for us. I am NEVER folding this river the way this hand was played - that's why we practice good bankroll management! :)

Nothing we can do here but take the hit, love the way you played this hand post flop.
Thanks for the insight and response :)
 
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bealpoker

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If the Villain was only raising 5% of hands preflop, I would strongly consider to fold A9s, especially with 4 players left to act after me. He was also a short stack, which makes it more difficult to draw or outplay him after the flop.

Postflop is just a cooler. You absolutely cannot fold the nut flush to someone, who started with less than 20BB. This is the hand, you were trying to make, and now you want to fold it? As you say yourself, he can have a worse flush or trips. Or even AK, which he dont know, what to do with on a bad river card, so he just ship it in. It was just a really bad river card for you, and situations like this can not be avoided.
You raise a good point my call pf was a little too loose given te info i have on villian. Thanks for the response :)
 
Nr98

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Just a cooler, nothing more nothing less. Don't lose a minute's sleep over this haha. Too short stacked to ever find a fold here.
 
ga25x

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me personally, i would have played 3 bet/fold preflop. if he called my 3 bet preflop, result would be the same as yours tho.
 
Jon Poker

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You raise a good point my call pf was a little too loose given te info i have on villian. Thanks for the response :)


I think I am fine with the A9s flat in position because we are going to play this hand properly post flop. We wont be over valuing top pair with a weaker kicker, if we dont flop a flush or straight draw of some sorts we can generally just fold our A hi to most cbets and we lose the minimum. This hand was just one of those hands it didnt matter if we had AK or AJ - AK 3 bets, we get it all in and unfortunately we lose - same result. AJs likely flats as well preflop and plays post the same way tho it is much stronger than A9. It's just a frosty runout. We can probably fold river when it does not come a spade because our opponent does not value bet into us twice with many worse hands than our bare Ax.
 
Q

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As played you call the river, most time your well ahead. personally, I would have raised the flop and he probably would have check-raised you so you could of easily fold.
 
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Fold preflop not considering?
How I played for fold on the river.
 
eetenor

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Before I start, I know gto will probably say this is a call, I am not just posting this to be results orientated. In the moment I tank called the river shove.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9qkfHq4



This tournament had 600 registrations, 84 paid and were 60 left, pay jump was around 5/6 places.

Villian is 17/5 over 60 hands, he played a hand similar to this a couple orbits ago where he min raised pre and delayed cbet on the turn when he flopped top two pair.

I don't really see what raises pre delay cbets turn and shoves river as a bluff on this board, especially when the backdoor flush completes and we have the As we block some of the hands he would turn into a bluff like the A high flush.

I didn't think he has any bluffs in his range here but thought he might be value betting a worse hand such as AK KQ QJ (this is only 22 combos), apart from that there is not many hands I beat. I need to win here 35% to be profitable so he needs less than 40 combos of value bets what beat me where I can only find 24 so this should be a call given this,

However given how he played a couple orbits ago I feel this is an exploitative play and looking back at the hand(without being results orientated) I feel I should have folded!

What would you have done? Is this correct to fold?

Thank U 4 Posting.

This hand depends on the reads you have on this Villain.

Preflop
Do we dominate this V's range or are we dominated?
Do we expect V to play straight forwardly post flop?
Do we think V is passive not tricky?
V has sub 20 BB should we be playing a drawing hand vs this V?

Flop

V checks but as you learned that does not mean weakness only.
U check behind but as we see that does not mean weakness either.

Turn
V leads. We need to think about strength and weakness here as from flop evidence.
So what range does V have for each possible scenario

Example:
Strong AA AQ QQ AK AJ 33 22 A3? A2? KK JJ KQ

Weak KJ K10 1010 99 88 77 66 55 44 33 Js10s 10s9s

Ok V had 2 not 1 players to get to fold if V was leading weakly would V lead half pot or greater? Would V semi bluff KsJs? JsTs?

Possibly that leaves V with a 80ish% pot shove, bluffs possible.

Is that common in your player pool. Players using 2 barrel bluffs OOP vs 2?
Would your player pool fold an A? Would you?

If that is a possibility why are you not raising the turn? Top pair nut flush draw V has pot size bet left. You have 20K left if you shove and lose.

River.

V shoves.
If V has Ace why is V not concerned about the Q? Or flush?
If V has flush why does V expect us to call pot? Is this betting pattern standard in your player pool?
What hand does V expect us to have here?
Does V expect us to have a hand here?
Should V expect enough of our range to call a shove here?
Should V have not bet flop small with the set so as to make getting it all-in less strong looking?

Did V do any timing tells on this river shove?

The data from above is what allows us to go beyond the standard I have to call because V's range includes hands worse than mine.

What you need to know is does it?
1 combo of AA 1 combo QQ 2 combos of AQ 3 combos 22 3 combos 33
All can play exactly the same way.

10 combos that kill us.

Most likely worse value combos that shove river.
KsJs Js10s

Would the Qx combos be thin value bets not shoves or Bluff catchers in your player pool.

Checking flop does not mean V does not have AK but why would V shove it when we can have the Q and we know V could have the Q? Why is V not bluff catching that part of their range?

Our range vs a bluff by V has a lot of Ax and Qx lots of flushes 22 33
Would your player pool know this?
Would they shove river anyway?

Does your player pool fold just an Ace on that run out? Is this player capable of that complex a bluff to ignore the Q pairing and shove anyway thinking trip Q's won't fold but x number of Ax hands will so I will bluff a player with 27K out of this 2-1 to call pot?

Or is this player wild enough to just ignore the Q and bluff anyway?

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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1player2

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Before I start, I know gto will probably say this is a call, I am not just posting this to be results orientated. In the moment I tank called the river shove.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/9qkfHq4


This tournament had 600 registrations, 84 paid and were 60 left, pay jump was around 5/6 places.

Villian is 17/5 over 60 hands, he played a hand similar to this a couple orbits ago where he min raised pre and delayed cbet on the turn when he flopped top two pair.

I don't really see what raises pre delay cbets turn and shoves river as a bluff on this board, especially when the backdoor flush completes and we have the As we block some of the hands he would turn into a bluff like the A high flush.

I didn't think he has any bluffs in his range here but thought he might be value betting a worse hand such as AK KQ QJ (this is only 22 combos), apart from that there is not many hands I beat. I need to win here 35% to be profitable so he needs less than 40 combos of value bets what beat me where I can only find 24 so this should be a call given this,

However given how he played a couple orbits ago I feel this is an exploitative play and looking back at the hand(without being results orientated) I feel I should have folded!

What would you have done? Is this correct to fold?



I'd Call Ten out of 10 times. Can't get away from nut flush. I'd assume he had Qx but with your blocker to the Ace and the other cards being rags I'd assume he had trips and I'd call. Good Luck


Good Luck To All:cool:
 
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